The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 25, 2012, 10:17 AM   #51
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
In reference to defensive handguns: "They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."

Concise & accurate, I'm going to use this response in the future.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 11:59 AM   #52
testuser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2010
Posts: 495
Interesting analysis above...

But it's dependent on your point of few. Some of it comes down to cash flow. Say I'm a .40 S&W shooter and I want something more powerful.

Do I purchase a 10mm or a .45 ACP?

I purchase brass in small lots as needed. My first lot of once fired 10mm brass purchased at a gun show did well for years. I almost never purchase brass in 1,000 count lots, due to the cost. Instead, I purchase a few hundred cases a year and reload them more frequently.

Projectiles are different. When it comes down to the end of the month and I have just enough in the budget to purchase 1,000 projectiles, then I purchase .40 caliber in bulk and reload two calibers over multiple platforms...

So, for someone that also shoots a lot of .40 S&W, the 10mm can make a lot of sense, especially since .40 brass is so cheap/free.

My budget doesn't always allow me to buy two calibers in bulk at the same time, so from a perspective of cash flow, I get a lot of bang for my buck shooting 10mm/.40 S&W.

That's one reason why I love reloading. I budget for individual components and can use them in multiple calibers.

Anyway, back to the original post...

For me, I meet quite a lot of .45 snobs. When I bring up the 10mm, they usually don't know what it is, or tell me it's too expensive to shoot. I haven't found that to be the case.

Last edited by testuser; November 25, 2012 at 12:28 PM.
testuser is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 05:55 PM   #53
stevedscross
Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
When will people stop fighting over handgun calibers, Really people. First no one "wants to be shot.. with anything!" Second, everyone know the best thing for home defense or personal defense is not a handgun its a couple daisy chained claymores! Third comparing military shootings are not accurate unless you plan on carrying the same load. So when people who have never been to Iraq tell me (who has) that the 9mm sucks at shooting people I just ask them how many people they shot to get that data>
News flash 9mm ball kinda sucks,.. .wait another news flash ALL FMJ pistol rounds SUCK!! contrary to popular opinion the .45 with FMJ does not do any better in real shootings than the 9mm. there have been studies done on this so don't argue with me, read the research. Besides who really carries ball anyway? I mean in the military we had to ;ROE, but for Iraq the international law would have allowed us expanding but the Gov, is not going to buy differant type of ammo and than ask the guy your fighting if he has a Genava conventions card! So a few of you have admitted to being caliber snobs, and a few to being gun snobs, me I am a bullet snob. I use the best bullet I can for the given task. Yes I have a 9mm, yes I have a .45, and a .40, .357 sig, .357 mag, .44 mag, .32 acp, couple 22's and I am sure some other stuff.

SO my nightstand gun is a .45 H&K, but if something goes bump in the night I am getting my AR out. But my daily carry gun is a Sig 9mm. the only thing that they have to do is get me to my AR or my 12 Gauge. Remember what Clint Smith says " your handgun is to fight your way to the long gun that you should have not set down to begin with."
stevedscross is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 06:04 PM   #54
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevedscross
Remember what Clint Smith says " your handgun is to fight your way to the long gun that you should have not set down to begin with."
I like Clint, but I don't see how that really applies, outside of a combat environment. I mean come on seriously, how many people walk around(in the USA, before someone mentions Israel, etc) carrying a long arm for SD? I'm sure we'd all wish we had an AR-10, or HK-21, etc when the big shoot out goes down, but I don't think many people CCW one.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 07:02 PM   #55
PeterGreg
Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Posts: 71
I'm no snob as I use two calibers, .380acp .45acp everything in between above or below doesn't interest me.
PeterGreg is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 02:12 AM   #56
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
I can't wait for a caliber snob to approach me at the range shooting my CCW a .38 snub, and tell me I should get a real gun like a 45acp. Then, I'll laugh and say that's not a real gun, opening up my Pandora's box and see him walk away with his tail between his legs.
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 02:33 AM   #57
egor20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,762
Quote:
Redhawk5.5+P+
I can't wait for a caliber snob to approach me at the range shooting my CCW a .38 snub, and tell me I should get a real gun like a 45acp. Then, I'll laugh and say that's not a real gun
Just tell him your carry guns an 88 Magnum, but it shoots THROUGH ranges, so this my BUG, they let me shoot it here.
__________________
Chief stall mucker and grain chef

Country don't mean dumb.
Steven King. The Stand
egor20 is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 03:41 AM   #58
warningshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2009
Posts: 995
Quote:
They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Well, if I was limited to his unknown person's shooting ability I'd probably say the same thing too.
warningshot is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 05:49 AM   #59
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,081
Quote:
Well, if I was limited to his unknown person's shooting ability I'd probably say the same thing too
The person I was quoting in my post is one of the most talented shooters I've ever met. We work together at a gun shop/range/training facility and he is better than any of the professional instructors we have. He works the retail side because he knows more about guns than anyone else on staff and he's a good salesman and an experienced gunsmith. Recently I found out that he's friends with Massad Ayoob and has taken many of his LFI courses. He's even beaten Ayoob several times in straight-up competition. I'll admit, I'm a little in awe of the guy, but I've shot next to him at our range and I've seen how good he is.

But even if the guy I quoted couldn't shoot at all, how is what he said in any way incorrect?
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 04:02 AM   #60
warningshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2009
Posts: 995
I am glad you are captivated by this shooter/instructors/salesman/ all around upstanding citizen’s comment. But I’m not.

Installing confidence with any pistol the student chooses to show up with is a cornerstone of pistol instruction.

What kind of response would Alvin York and Jim Cirillo have to this, instructor’s, comment? Perhaps this comment is taken out of context. And maybe it is good that this man’s name and associated training facility remain unknown for the good of shooting.
warningshot is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 06:25 AM   #61
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
Quote:
But even if the guy I quoted couldn't shoot at all, how is what he said in any way incorrect?
On a competition level some misinformation might help them get the edge on there competitors. Just ask Gov Arlond Mr. America 1972.
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 07:44 AM   #62
qwiksdraw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2012
Posts: 354
"They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."

This statement should not be taken at face value, it is made with the intention for the listener to spend some time and THINK about it.

As i see it, by saying "they all suck" means all calibers are not perfect, each has it's own performance levels and limitations. No one round does it all. Learn your ammo.

By picking "the one you shoot best" means not only knowing what ammo you can handle but knowing your gun and knowing why it works best for you. Learn your gun/firearm/weapon.

This also includes knowing everything you can learn how the gun and the ammo and you the shooter work as a system and understanding that power, potential and limitations. Know what you are doing.

It's amazing how just ten word can say so much, if you just stop and think about them.
qwiksdraw is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 10:49 AM   #63
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,081
I think you're both missing the point here. Remember, he was talking about the 9mm, .40, and .45; and the point is that the actual difference between the three is very small as far as terminal ballistics are concerned. Too often people pick the .45 thinking its far superior to the .40 and the 9mm; or they pick the .40 thinking its far superior to the 9mm. But that's just not the case. And they are all vastly inferior compared to a rifle such as an AR-15.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 10:57 AM   #64
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,081
Quote:
I am glad you are captivated by this shooter/instructors/salesman/ all around upstanding citizen’s comment. But I’m not.

Installing confidence with any pistol the student chooses to show up with is a cornerstone of pistol instruction.

What kind of response would Alvin York and Jim Cirillo have to this, instructor’s, comment? Perhaps this comment is taken out of context. And maybe it is good that this man’s name and associated training facility remain unknown for the good of shooting.
He didn't make the comment in a class setting. It was simply a private conversation. And, like I said, he doesn't even work as an instructor anymore; and that may be because he's not as good an instructor as he is a shooter.

But, as I posted above, his comment is still pretty accurate; there's not a lot of difference between the 9mm, .40, and .45 and you should be prepared to put multiple shots center mass because none of these rounds are magical man-stoppers.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 11:56 AM   #65
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
But it's dependent on your point of few. Some of it comes down to cash flow. Say I'm a .40 S&W shooter and I want something more powerful.

Do I purchase a 10mm or a .45 ACP?
True - however - I'm not a .40 S&W shooter.
I am a .45 LC shooter though.
.452" 230 grain lead bullets work in both .45acp and .45LC in my guns.
I got "lucky" w/my Blackhawk .45 Colt.
The bore and chamber mouths all slug the same - .451".
I've also got a Winchester Trapper in .45LC that eats the 230 grain like candy.

Pretty much the same as your method.

I stock one "standard" bulk for both for "plinker" or "shoot em up" rounds.
Hal is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 11:58 AM   #66
Rebel9793
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 134
Dont matter how big it is if you cant hit anything with it. Shoot what your comfortable with.
Rebel9793 is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 01:01 PM   #67
qwiksdraw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2012
Posts: 354
I think you're both missing the point here. Remember, he was talking about the 9mm, .40, and .45; and the point is that the actual difference between the three is very small as far as terminal ballistics are concerned. Too often people pick the .45 thinking its far superior to the .40 and the 9mm; or they pick the .40 thinking its far superior to the 9mm. But that's just not the case. And they are all vastly inferior compared to a rifle such as an AR-15.


OH! I thought that I was agreeing with you.
qwiksdraw is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 02:39 PM   #68
COSteve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2009
Posts: 473
While I don't have anything against a 9mm for CCW as it is adequate for personnel, those of us who take our pistols out into the woods as protection from thick skin, possibly dangerous animals don't find the 9mm a useful caliber. Further, I handload and there isn't much cost advantage in handloading 9mm over my 357mag, 40, 45, and 10mm handguns so I haven't a need for a 9mm for cost reasons. Lastly, I don't like the idea of training on a platform or caliber that I won't be actually using so a 22lr or 9mm training weapon isn't in the cards either.

My daily CCW piece is a Glock 23 stuffed with 180grn Speer Gold Dots which is great for a defense against an attacker. However, in the Rocky Mountains, my 'walkabout' sidearm is my custom Glock 20L loaded with 200grn hardcast. At just over 1,400fps and over 870ft/lbs ME, these handloads provide protection against anything I might encounter. Best of all, with the magwell removed, my custom G20L actually weighs less loaded with 17+1 rds than my 6" barreled S&W 686 with only 6 rds of 158grn 357mag ammo on board so it's the logical choice for my woods gun.

I practice regularly with both my G23 and G20L at the range where I also shoot my 45acp Springfield Range Officer for fun. Neither the 40 or the 45 have the trajectory for longer range shooting that I regularly practice at. Anything over 100yd for the 40 and over 50yd for the 45 produce trajectory drops that I don't like so I limit both to those distances. However, my custom longslide and my hot 10mm 165grn loads gives me a flat trajectory so that I can shoot accurately at our steel plates at 200yds.

I've come to practice at ranges of at least 50yds and farther exclusively because it helps me pay attention to my fundamentals. At those ranges any mistakes are magnified dramatically so I'm constantly having to watch my grip, sight picture, and trigger management. With my aim small, miss small philosophy, I work on the fundamentals constantly so I'm always sure of my proficiency.
__________________
Steve

“Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.” - Buckaroo Banzai 1984
"When you find a find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it." - Dilbert 2009
COSteve is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 02:45 PM   #69
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,081
Quote:
OH! I thought that I was agreeing with you.
Ha, sorry about that; I guess I missed your point instead.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."

Last edited by Theohazard; November 27, 2012 at 02:51 PM.
Theohazard is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 03:21 PM   #70
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 862
Quote:
In reference to defensive handguns: "They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
This is probably one of the most accurate statements I have read in recent memory. With very few exceptions, a handgun is primarily a defensive weapon, although still very lethal.

I take heat now and then for my choice of the 9mm, I have become immune to it, I just shrug my shoulders and say "Okay" or something and let the him think he got me. If He/she values their own opinion so much to attack my caliber choice, there is very little point in me showing my disagreement of it.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason
iraiam is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 03:29 PM   #71
JimDandy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,341
JimDandy is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 03:42 PM   #72
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,189
Yep, that will do it right there.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 04:09 PM   #73
TrueTexan
Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2012
Posts: 39
Somebody will want one in a 8 shot wheel gun or a double stack semi for CCW
TrueTexan is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 04:17 PM   #74
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
You run into them every so often, but I just smiled and nodded simply stating that I'm more comfortable with a 9mm and that I respectfully disagree.

I have a Glock that can shoot a 9mm with 800+lbs of power. I'm a Dillon snob.
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 05:23 PM   #75
JimDandy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,341
I wouldn't want Double stack. As I recall the case would have issues, so single stack works for me. Maybe Wilson will make a nice 8 round mag for it...
JimDandy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13622 seconds with 7 queries