The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 25, 2012, 06:52 AM   #26
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,250
I am sure shoot troughs happen. But as in the incident in new york recently bystanders are more likely to be hit by the bullets you miss with than a shoot trough. As for one guy getting 19 times with FMJ and not going down immediately show me the evidence that the outcome would have being any different if they used different hand gun calibers or bullets . ? PS i wouldn't get to concerned in what bullet type to use i would be more concerned that i could put the round accurately into the target. Avoiding missing and hitting a bystander.

Last edited by manta49; November 25, 2012 at 07:04 AM.
manta49 is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 09:01 AM   #27
Homerboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 990
Are you saying that a 9MM hollow pint has the same lethality as a 9MM fmj? I have personally seen the firearms discharge report on the Diallo shooting. It specifically states the fmj round the officers were using contributed to the amount of shots fired, due to Diallo not going down and the rounds that passed through him ricochetting BACK at the officers. The job had been trying to go to hollow points for years, but the usual anti-cop rabble rousers protested it. In spite of that, the job could no longer issue fmj ammo after the Diallo shooting. 2 of the 4 officers had Combat Crosses, meaning they had been in shootouts before, so these guys weren't poorply trained, trigger happy boobs.

17 of the 19 shots that hit Diallo were not fatal. One of the ones that WAS fatal nicked an aorta so he bled internally, but he lived for 15-20 minutes after the shooting (died en route to the hospital). 17 shots at a range of less than 5 yards and he would have lived.

As for the recent NY shooting where bystanders were hit, the VAST majority of those hit (if not all) were hit with fragments from rounds bouncing off the concrete. I would wager a fmj round would have not broken up as much.
Homerboy is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 09:19 AM   #28
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,250
Quote:
Are you saying that a 9MM hollow pint has the same lethality as a 9MM fmj? I have personally seen the firearms discharge report on the Diallo shooting. It specifically states the fmj round the officers were using contributed to the amount of shots fired, due to Diallo not going down and the rounds that passed through him ricochetting BACK at the officers. The job had been trying to go to hollow points for years, but the usual anti-cop rabble rousers protested it. In spite of that, the job could no longer issue fmj ammo after the Diallo shooting. 2 of the 4 officers had Combat Crosses, meaning they had been in shootouts before, so these guys weren't poorply trained, trigger happy boobs
That doesn't answer my question. Show me evidence that if hollow points were used that the outcome would have different. As for him not going down people can be shot numerous times with handgun ammo and not go down. If they want to have a better change of putting someone down then they should be using a rifle.

Quote:
17 shots at a range of less than 5 yards and he would have lived.

If someone is hit 30 times with any popular handgun ammo there is no guarantee that he will go down. Hollow points or fmj. PS The authorities here must think fmj is effective as its the only ammo allowed for self defence

PS The only reason that expanding handgun ammo might be marginally more effective than FMJ is the increase in diameter. But not as much as ammo manufacturers like us to think and pay the extra for.


In a recent incident here one well placed 9mm round was enough expanding ammo or FMJ the outcome would have the same see bellow.

A post-mortem examination has described the cause of death as a bullet wound to the chest.

Assistant state pathologist Dr James Lyness said the bullet had penetrated his chest and cut the main pumping chamber of his heart before lodging in muscles in his back.

Last edited by manta49; November 25, 2012 at 09:41 AM.
manta49 is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 10:35 AM   #29
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,274
I don't think that anyone would say that FMJ can't be lethal or can't stop a fight. I would say that modern JHPs do offer performance advantages over FMJs. One of those advantages is increased bullet diameter being more likely to hit vital areas as it crushes tissue.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 12:17 PM   #30
hardworker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2010
Posts: 820
FMJ is most certainly not as effective as a hollow point. At least, a hollow point will act the same as a FMJ when it punches through the target. If it expands is definitely does more damage. That's why you shouldn't hunt with FMJ. It punches right through and lets the animal run off and die later.
hardworker is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 05:19 PM   #31
Homerboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 990
Quote:
That doesn't answer my question. Show me evidence that if hollow points were used that the outcome would have different. As for him not going down people can be shot numerous times with handgun ammo and not go down. If they want to have a better change of putting someone down then they should be using a rifle.
Show me evidence a .22 would have resulted in a different outcome. Show me evidence the sky is blue. I've already told you the fmj rounds bouncing back at the cops increased their fire The evidence is extensive thanks to ballastic gelatine. Cops aren't carrying rifles. They have handguns. And right now, the NYPD is limited to 9MM. And hollow point ammo has a BETTER chance of stopping a threat. Most departments have moved from the 9MM to the .40 or the .45 GAP. Show me evidence those calibers are better.

Last edited by Homerboy; November 25, 2012 at 05:26 PM.
Homerboy is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 02:44 PM   #32
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,250
Quote:
. Cops aren't carrying rifles. They have handguns.
Perhaps they should carry rifles they do here. Or they should shoot straighter one good shot form a 9mm FMJ will do the job 30 shots of expanding ammo won't if not put in the right place.

Quote:
Most departments have moved from the 9MM to the .40 or the .45 GAP. Show me evidence those calibers are better.
I wouldn't say they are any better its were they put the rounds that's important.

Last edited by manta49; November 26, 2012 at 03:24 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 02:50 PM   #33
gwalchmai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2001
Location: outside the perimeter
Posts: 329
"You can't miss fast enough to win!"
gwalchmai is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 06:37 PM   #34
SRH78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 444
Anyone who says 1 good shot will incapacitate a grown man is either talking about a CNS hit or has never put handgun bullets into living flesh. Also, there is a definite difference in the amount of damage from bullets with different construction.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
SRH78 is offline  
Old November 27, 2012, 04:57 PM   #35
carprivershooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2008
Location: Michigan, Upper Pennsula
Posts: 393
I carry Horndy 110 gr FTX 38 cal +P in my S&W 686 3" barrel.
__________________
CarpriverShOOter
Finch, I don't like guns. Reese, Me either but if someone has to have guns I'd rather it be me. (Person of Interest).
No trees were destroyed in the posting of the this message
carprivershooter is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 11:12 AM   #36
roaddog28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: Fallbrook, CA
Posts: 859
Its still a matter of shot placement. A one shot round can incapacitate a bad guy if the shot hits the head/central nervous system. This is not easily because its harder to hit the head or spine than the chest. Even with a good chest hit, death probably won't happen instantly. Until there is enough blood loss or loss of pulse or in the case of a lung hit (lack of oxygen to brain) the bad guy won't dye and can fight on for several minutes. I still say shot placement is the key not ammo.
Howard
roaddog28 is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 11:59 AM   #37
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
Quote:
Biff Tannen

.357 self-defense: light vs heavy and safety of bystanders

- One popular theory of .357 self-defense is that one should use a light hollow-point (125 grain)... The logic is that the light bullet will expand easily and the energy will transfer into the target, and prevent an exit, which may hurt an innocent bystander.

- a second popular theory of .357 self-defense is that one should use a heavy hollow-point (158 grain)... The logic is that the heavy bullet will have less energy therefore less potential to exit the target, this preventing an exit which may hurt an innocent bystander.

In your opinion, which self-defense theory is more valid?
As to penetration of a light hollow point v a heavy hollow point:
There are many variables, but to keep it simple let us assume that the light bullet weighs 125gr. has a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps for an energy of 544 foot pounds; the other weighs 158 gr. and has velocity of 1200 FPS for an energy of 505 foot pounds.

I also assume that the light bullet will deform earlier and to a greater degree than the slower heavier bullet. If the 125 gr bullet deforms to a diameter of .70" is will use its energy crushing tissue sooner and in greater volume per inch of penetration (and penetrate less) than the heavier bullet that deforms to only .60".

While these are not real numbers, they are reasonable approximations of how modern hollow point bullets do perform in crushing vascular tissue.

If you omit the relatively low chance of incapacitation due to hitting the brain or the upper spinal cord (they represent a small volume of the body), then you are left with blood loss as the means of incapacitation. This accounts for at least 90% of incapacitation due to the structure of the body.

Even if what I have assumed is accurate the difference in time to incapacitation of a determined attacker is relatively minor. Even if you do hit the heart a determined attacker can fight and shoot for many seconds, perhaps as long as 30 seconds. In effect the time to incapacitation difference is minor compared to what you shoot better in your handgun.

In summary, all defensive handgun cartridges suck so choose the one you shoot best.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 04:28 PM   #38
Japle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2004
Location: Viera, Florida
Posts: 1,187
Quote:
Its still a matter of shot placement.
Man, I get tired of hearing this. Anyone who’s had experience with FOF training, much less actual gunfighting knows that accurate shot placement on an opponent who’s moving and shooting at you while you’re moving is damn near impossible.

Your best bet is to use a handgun chambered for a major caliber that you can shoot well, loaded with the most effective ammo. BTW, the most effective ammo available now is one of the premium JHP loads from a major company.
Japle is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 02:07 PM   #39
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
Man, I get tired of hearing this. Anyone who’s had experience with FOF training, much less actual gunfighting knows that accurate shot placement on an opponent who’s moving and shooting at you while you’re moving is damn near impossible.
Two thumbs up!
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 05:31 PM   #40
smith357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2005
Posts: 270
My sights are regulated for 158 grain bullets.
smith357 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10842 seconds with 7 queries