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Old November 25, 2012, 10:17 PM   #76
TunnelRat
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the US military teaches that the M9 pistol is to be carried chamber-empty.
That's also new to me. The MPs on most bases I've talked to have their M9s with a round chambered, decocked, safety on.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:27 PM   #77
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WVsig: I never said anything about carrying it in the holster cocked....the article stated that you draw your gun first then cock the hammer. As you stated, the firing pin safety keeps it from firing if dropped....it should work just fine to prevent the gun from firing when the gun is gripped in your hand with your finger off the trigger.
Did you or did you not state there is no difference between a Glock or M&P and a DA/SA with a hammer cocked. I carry a Glock on occasion but I would never carry a Sig P226 hammer back. So I think that demonstrates a clear difference between the two guns and the safety mechanism involved.

Please show me a modern handgun trainer who is respected that teaches their students the method you are describing. I doubt that you will be able to find one that would advocate this in a self defense situtation. The only time I can see this as a practical option is on the range or in a ZERO stress situation. In any sort of self defense situation it would be much faster and more practical to simply learn to take the DA shot which from the beginning has been my point. If I am drawing a gun from leather to be used to defend myself I doubt I will have time to thumb back the hammer. YMMV

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That's also new to me. The MPs on most bases I've talked to have their M9s with a round chambered, decocked, safety on.
It was always my understanding that when they adopted the M9 they allowed a round chamber, decocked safety on. This how my brother carried when he was in Iraq. It is how my sister in law carried as a member of the VA National Guard.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:50 PM   #78
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it depends on the situation. usually at training commands such as boot camp we were instructed to carry condition 3(no round chambered and safety on). however in an actual FPCON environment it tended to be round chambered safety on(what they referred to as condition 1 though definitions seem to vary between civilian and military apparently)

if it's some kid that's never held a gun in their life you bet they are going to have you carry with nothing down the pipe but if you've got a suicide bomber racing towards an ECP what condition do you think the troops defending it are going to be in that offers the fastest response?
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Old November 26, 2012, 08:01 AM   #79
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Old November 26, 2012, 08:28 AM   #80
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can you say "uninformed"?

the M11(sig sauer P226) pistol is DA/SA
the M9(Beretta 92FS) is DA/SA

special forces, recon, mobile expeditionary and mobile comms all use these and use them often.
The M11 is the Sig P228.
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Old November 26, 2012, 09:08 AM   #81
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Pardon me, Mr WVsig, but you should have time to cock the hammer when making a draw. Of course, it's easier to do with some guns than other (next to impossible for some) and if it's a double-action, there's no point anyway.

Techniques evolve over the years, too, partly because of fads and fashions, and partly for other reasons. The original method of carrying a 1911 .45 automatic was hammer down on a loaded chamber. That wasn't the only way but that's the way it was described in the manual. It's very easy to cock the hammer on a Colt .45 auto, too, at least I think it is. Not so easy on most other pistols, including the Commander models but the real problem with the Commander is getting the hammer down in the first place. On the other hand, some pistols are particularly easy to chamber a round but some are especially difficult. Suit yourself but don't shoot yourself.
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Old November 26, 2012, 12:08 PM   #82
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The M11 is the Sig P228.
interesting, all of the familiarization courses I took when I was trying to become a range instructor said that it was a modified P226.
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Old November 26, 2012, 01:23 PM   #83
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interesting, all of the familiarization courses I took when I was trying to become a range instructor said that it was a modified P226.
You are technically correct.

It IS a modified P226. But it has it's own designation in the Sig catalog as the P228.

Sort of like the Glock 19 is a modified Glock 17.

I think it was an outgrowth of the original P226. I think other branches of the military liked the P226 and how it performed in the trials that eventually chose the Beretta M9 but they thought it was too big for their uses in P226 format. So Sig accomodated them and chopped it down to size.

I used to have one. While it is very similar to the P229 and size/shape, for some reason I liked it much better. It didn't feel like it was going to squeeze up out of my hand like the P229 always does.
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Old November 26, 2012, 01:38 PM   #84
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Many would contend that it (DA/SA transition) IS difficult to master.
That could really only be true of those too cheap to buy some snap caps and too lazy to practice dry firing for familiarization.

First dry firing DA, learn your trigger reset.
Second pull, thumb the hammer back and dry fire SA, learn the SA trigger reset.
Repeat as necessary until it is second nature, just like any other training.

A DA/SA trigger is self-consistent. The transition between modes is predictable, always occurs in the same sequence while firing, and it is not difficult to master.
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Old November 26, 2012, 01:44 PM   #85
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Consistent to YOU. Others think there is no consistency there.
Who cares? Its what each person prefers. Everything else is just internet fanboys getting their undies in a bunch.
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Old November 26, 2012, 02:53 PM   #86
Gats Italian
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No, the DA/SA trigger is the same every time out.

First shot is a long DA pull between 8-10 pound usually.
Then there is a transition which is the same every time.
Second shot is a shorter travel SA pull between 4-5.5 pounds usually.

These things always happen in this sequence, so it is consistent and can be trained for that way if one is not lazy.

Complaining about the DA/SA trigger is a lot like complaining about the possibility of "forgetting" the 1911's thumb safety.

Both are mere training issues.
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Old November 26, 2012, 03:03 PM   #87
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Something must be wrong with me ... I have SA, DA/SA, and DA guns and I like, and am proficient, with all of them. Each type has specific purposes for which it is better suited for my uses.
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Old November 26, 2012, 03:20 PM   #88
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No, the DA/SA trigger is the same every time out.

First shot is a long DA pull between 8-10 pound usually.
Then there is a transition which is the same every time.
Second shot is a shorter travel SA pull between 4-5.5 pounds usually.
***Others would argue the diffference is not at all consistent. Saying it is only means you're typing that it is. Its opinion only.

These things always happen in this sequence, so it is consistent and can be trained for that way if one is not lazy.
***Birth and death usually happen in this sequence too, that doesn't mean a whole lot. Why the personal note on the "lazy?" You're making this personal. I could as easily say anyone who's not carrying cocked and locked with a 1911 are being lazy (and unsafe). Each person is different and there's plenty of models for anyone.

Complaining about the DA/SA trigger is a lot like complaining about the possibility of "forgetting" the 1911's thumb safety.
***Which is a real possibility. I've seen grey haired competitors with years of experience glitch on that. Some may not trust it. Others may believe its the only truly safe way to go and that all DA'ers are cookoo.


Both are mere training issues.
***NO. They are personal preferences and physical differences.
My wife has short fingers. Pulling the DA portion of an DA/SA is difficult for my wife. Indeed I have problems with such on the 92 (much less so on a Storm though).
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Old November 26, 2012, 03:29 PM   #89
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Consistent to YOU. Others think there is no consistency there.
I think the argument Gats is making is that he thinks people are misusing the term "consistent". The trigger pulls are the same, they don't vary randomly. First DA pull is always the same weight and the subsequent pulls are always lighter. What people mean to say is that they would prefer the same weight pull each time. It's just semantics.

For the record, while I prefer DA/SA I have nothing against striker pistols with safe-action type triggers.
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Old November 26, 2012, 03:43 PM   #90
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:
Consistent to YOU. Others think there is no consistency there.

I think the argument Gats is making is that he thinks people are misusing the term "consistent". The trigger pulls are the same, they don't vary randomly. First DA pull is always the same weight and the subsequent pulls are always lighter. What people mean to say is that they would prefer the same weight pull each time. It's just semantics.
Agreed (An inconsistent trigger under that definition would be truly disconcerting.)

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For the record, while I prefer DA/SA I have nothing against striker pistols with safe-action type triggers.
Ditto, and have both as well.
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