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Old November 21, 2012, 06:20 PM   #51
jimbob86
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True DAO is the ONLY trigger system that actually gives true consistency.
SAO is always the same ..... just sayin'.....
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:11 AM   #52
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Ooops! You are correct, Jimbo. My mistake.

I forgot about SAO.... because I don't have one and don't really care for them (they violate my "uncocked carry" rule).
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Old November 22, 2012, 09:11 AM   #53
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I have a Ruger P89 that was my only pistol for years. I never carried it and it only served as a range, truck, HD gun. I put a set of Houge grips on it and though I never liked the DA pull I learned to use it and be accurate with it.

I was content with that until I shot my first IDPA match. That is when the trigger bothered me so I got a Glock 17 before (I had the month before got a G26 for carry so it seemed the natural choice) the next match. The P89 has been in the safe ever since, but I couldn't sell it due to various reasons (they are a great value).

I have started to use it again because I have found it seems to be the safest to teach new shooters with. The first DA pull is so hard you have to be really deliberate to make it fire. The decocker is also a fantastic feature that allows me to drop the hammer and engage the safety in one move which I have found very handy when going through the nuances of shooting with my 10 year old.

I just bought a G19 yesterday and I need to sell a couple to pay for it. Guess what? I am keeping the Ruger. That DA/SA has it's place.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:00 PM   #54
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Will admit the DA/SA handguns are probably some of the safest handguns from the standpoint of preventing an accidental discharge.....
I disagree.

Keeping one's finger off the trigger till the target is in one's sights prevents accidental discharges.
And additional 5 pounds of trigger pull does not.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:05 PM   #55
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Keeping one's finger off the trigger till the target is in one's sights prevents accidental discharges.
And additional 5 pounds of trigger pull does not.
Word!
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:08 PM   #56
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Keeping one's finger off the trigger till the target is in one's sights prevents accidental discharges.
And additional 5 pounds of trigger pull does not.
Undoubtedly. Though if that's true, why don't we all have pistols with 1 lb triggers?
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Old November 25, 2012, 06:21 AM   #57
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I hadn't realized there where was so much acrimony coming from striker fans.
I haven't noticed it either. I enjoy and carry both at different times.
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Old November 25, 2012, 07:13 AM   #58
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The Glock fanboys are back! do you think the inventor of the internet envisioned his creation would be used to spew opinion as fact? The internet has created a place for mall ninjas to come together. look at some of the morons on youtube if you don't believe me.

Here's the thing. a DA/SA firearm is slightly less accurate because of the longer trigger pull on the first shot. You think the person you just shot is going to care about your grouping? And basing your marksmanship in a self defense shooting on your scores at the range is a waste of time anyway. You're NOT gonna be double tapping to the heart if you are being robbed. Shooting at steel plates? How big are they? 8 inches? a hit is a hit, even if there is an 8 inch spread.

Now let's talk about the BENEFITS of a DA/SA gun. FAR LESS chance of an negligent discharge. I know I'm about to get the "My safety is between my ears" and "Keep your finger off the trigger and the gun won't fire" comments, but you can save yourself the trouble of typing because it's all BS. People DO make mistakes, and they are far more likely to happen with a 5 pound trigger on a hammerless, no manual safety firearm. The NYPD is one of the few departments that authorized three different weapons. A Glock 19, SIG 226 (DAO) and S&W 5946 (DAO). During training, the range officer would issue the command "thumb on the hammer and holster". Can't do that with a Glock. At the time of my retirement, there was NOT ONE report of a ND or AD with the SIG or Smith. ALL of them were Glocks.
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Old November 25, 2012, 08:25 AM   #59
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I think for self defence there is a lot of rubbish talked about trigger pulls SA/DA etc. I f someone is shooting at you will not notice what type of trigger its or if it has a 2lb pull or 20 lb pull. Target shooting on a range you will notice a difference.

PS If a good trigger pull was that important no one would buy a glock.
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Old November 25, 2012, 08:26 AM   #60
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I remember reading an article in G&A written a couple of decades ago about the proper use of a DA/SA (or Traditional Double-Action/TDA) autos. The author stated that the DA shot is for situations when you have to draw & fire quickly at a close-range target. If you have more time to draw, you should draw, cock the hammer, and keep your finger off the trigger until you need to make a precise shot. After the threat is over, decock & holster. That approach made a lot of sense to me when I owned a SIG 220 & a Ruger P95.....but I don't own a TDA auto now (XD9sc & revolvers).
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Old November 25, 2012, 09:40 AM   #61
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SA for me. I have two sa/da revolvers that are never fired da. I won't have a da semi. I did buy a Glock once but never again.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:19 AM   #62
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Not hard to tell how effective DA/SA is. Just look at all the top pistol competitors and special forces units who choose it!

(Can you say ZERO?)
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:22 AM   #63
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I remember reading an article in G&A written a couple of decades ago about the proper use of a DA/SA (or Traditional Double-Action/TDA) autos. The author stated that the DA shot is for situations when you have to draw & fire quickly at a close-range target. If you have more time to draw, you should draw, cock the hammer, and keep your finger off the trigger until you need to make a precise shot. After the threat is over, decock & holster. That approach made a lot of sense to me when I owned a SIG 220 & a Ruger P95.....but I don't own a TDA auto now (XD9sc & revolvers).
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Thats the way I look at it as well. Same with a double action revolver.
I have rather long and strong thumbs and index fingers, so I've never had a problem in cocking the hammer of any auto-loader so far. Others with smaller hands may have a problem.

Theoretically a DAO auto-pistol sounds fine to me, I just haven't seen one I like so far or I'd buy one.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:28 AM   #64
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Not hard to tell how effective DA/SA is. Just look at all the top pistol competitors and special forces units who choose it!
You're talking about rather specialized applications here... those who want a gun without a safety that is safe to carry and yet ready to go if needed may want a DA/SA.
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:50 AM   #65
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It is all about trigger control no matter what system you are shooting. Trigger control is what allows you to shoot any pistol properly. If you spend enough time shooting and dry firing a pistol you can master any and all trigger systems. Does that mean you will "like" all systems equally? NO but it does not mean you cannot shoot all systems with a high degree of competency.

I do not understand why people feel the need to trash the DA/SA trigger or striker fired DAO trigger for that matter. I think that both can serve any shooter well with the right training. If you do not want to train on multiple platforms I can understand that. Resources and time are limited but I believe that if you put in time you can master any trigger system.

I prefer SA hammer fired guns like the BHP & 1911. I cut my teeth shooting DA/SA Sigs. I have learned to shoot Glocks and Kahrs. I still give the SA hammer fired guns the edge in my hand and they are the ones which consistently put smiles on my face while shooting. This does not mean I do not shoot the other well enough to know that if called upon I can defend my life with any gun in the safe including a few S&W DAO revolvers. It is all about familiarity with the individual guns and their individual triggers. No 2 triggers are 100% identical. Each BHP I own has a different trigger pull than the others. The same with my Sigs and the same with my Glocks. No guns are 100% consistent gun to gun.

If you are really interested in mastering a DA/SA trigger I suggest reading this article by Bruce Gray. It a nice read about how to master a DA/SA trigger by dry firing. It emphasizes trigger control and learning to prep the trigger. It is all about visualization releasing and pressing the trigger. It is all about knowing the reset point and learning how to run the trigger at speed without jerking it. The best part is it is FREE!!!!! it takes time but no resources, assuming you already have a DA/SA gun.

http://grayguns.com/dry-fire-secrets-of-the-pros/
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:58 AM   #66
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I remember reading an article in G&A written a couple of decades ago about the proper use of a DA/SA (or Traditional Double-Action/TDA) autos. The author stated that the DA shot is for situations when you have to draw & fire quickly at a close-range target. If you have more time to draw, you should draw, cock the hammer, and keep your finger off the trigger until you need to make a precise shot. After the threat is over, decock & holster. That approach made a lot of sense to me when I owned a SIG 220 & a Ruger P95.....but I don't own a TDA auto now (XD9sc & revolvers).
IMHO this is a poor training method. It is increasing the likely hood or a ND. With proper training there is no need to cock a DA/SA hammer prior to shooting in any situation.

Quote:
Not hard to tell how effective DA/SA is. Just look at all the top pistol competitors and special forces units who choose it!

(Can you say ZERO?)
Navy Seals?



http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProdu...p226-navy.aspx
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:30 AM   #67
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Quote:
Don't like DA/SA?
For whatever reason?
Why not admit what you already know—that such dislike is a subjective expression of your preferences and not objective "truth" that covers what "everyone should use."

The DA/SA system isn't difficult to master.
"The DA/SA system isn't difficult to master."? Why not admit what you already know-that such dislike is a subjective expression of your preferences and not objective "truth" that covers what "everyone should use." Wow! Talk about passing a subjective preferance off as "truth". Many would contend that it is difficult to master.
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:42 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by WVSIG
IMHO this is a poor training method. It is increasing the likely hood or a ND. With proper training there is no need to cock a DA/SA hammer prior to shooting in any situation.
How is a cocked TDA auto with finger off the trigger & a firing pin safety (as they all have now) any different than the Glock or M&P trigger? Keep your finger off the trigger....a TDA auto won't fire on its own.
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Old November 25, 2012, 12:04 PM   #69
WVsig
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How is a cocked TDA auto with finger off the trigger & a firing pin safety (as they all have now) any different than the Glock or M&P trigger? Keep your finger off the trigger....a TDA auto won't fire on its own.
You are right it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled but it is still a poor technique. I likely hood of DA has gone up considerable if as you cock the gun in a self defense situation, which is the only time I personally would draw a gun, vs simply learning to fire the gun using the DA pull. If you do not want to use a DA/SA gun using the intended technique I recommend choosing a different platform.

I personally would never carry a DA/SA gun cocked in a holster would you? The firing pin safety is to prevent the gun from firing if it is dropped when in the cocked position. It is not IMHO a safety device designed to allow the gun to carried in a SA mode. YMMV
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Old November 25, 2012, 12:28 PM   #70
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Not hard to tell how effective DA/SA is. Just look at all the top pistol competitors and special forces units who choose it!

(Can you say ZERO?)
Top pistol competitors shoot for a living. They are sponsored by a particular company and are paid well to shoot what they are told. Jerry Miculek would shoot a Taurus if they paid him more than S&W does.

Special Forces uses the Beretta M9, the SIG 226, and the special forces in other countries still shoot a TDA gun. Or do you think a Nany SEAL with a SIG is at a disadvantage over Joe Mall Ninja with a Glock or an M&P?
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Old November 25, 2012, 12:34 PM   #71
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Not hard to tell how effective DA/SA is. Just look at all the top pistol competitors and special forces units who choose it!

(Can you say ZERO?)
can you say "uninformed"?

the M11(sig sauer P226) pistol is DA/SA
the M9(Beretta 92FS) is DA/SA

special forces, recon, mobile expeditionary and mobile comms all use these and use them often.
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Old November 25, 2012, 03:25 PM   #72
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the M11(sig sauer P226) pistol is DA/SA
the M9(Beretta 92FS) is DA/SA
Don't forget the relatively recent adoption of the HK45c by SOCOM. Another DA/SA pistol, though I imagine they might carry it cocked and locked.
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Old November 25, 2012, 06:30 PM   #73
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Love my SIG, Love my M&P, Love my LCP... There's room for everything on my hip.
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Old November 25, 2012, 08:45 PM   #74
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WVsig: I never said anything about carrying it in the holster cocked....the article stated that you draw your gun first then cock the hammer. As you stated, the firing pin safety keeps it from firing if dropped....it should work just fine to prevent the gun from firing when the gun is gripped in your hand with your finger off the trigger.

Question for all: the US military teaches that the M9 pistol is to be carried chamber-empty. Do they also teach soldiers, when they chamber a round in combat, to decock before firing so the first round is DA?.....

.....I didn't think so....
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Old November 25, 2012, 09:07 PM   #75
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That's news to me. The 1911 was to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber. The M9 was not so I have been told. Depends where you are stationed, I guess. After 9/11, National Guardsmen stationed in NYC had 30 round magazines in their M-16's, but they only had 5 rounds and the round was not chambered. I was given a Mini 14 to stand post at 1 Police Plaza, and we had 20 round mags, no chambered round.
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