cap and ball revolvers, should i go stainless?

[jason41987]

ive been looking at some cap and ball revolvers, and i know what a pain it can be to constantly clean these things, and how fast they can corrode steel... but im wondering how much better are stainless steel models when it comes to fouling and corrosion?.. do they stand up really well, making a stainless revolver the absolute best choice?... or is it only a little bit better than blued steel in this area?...

also, stainless vs other finishes on carbon steel.... do you think its better to just go stainless?.. or go with the carbon and have it refinished with some of the newer technologies for longevity and easier cleaning?

i guess these questions apply to more than cap and ball.. and really to anything firing black powder including black powder cartridges as well

[Hawg Haggen]

Its personal preference. Blued steel isn't hard top keep clean. As long as you clean the guns with soapy water within a day or two of shooting you won't get any rust.

[James K]

Tradition vs. practicality. If you don't feel like a C&B revolver has to look like something from the Civil War, go with stainless and reduce (not eliminate) cleaning time.

Jim

[jason41987]

its true that only the 1858 copies are made in stainless steel, right?.. i wouldnt mind an 1860 colt, but dont think they make them

[DaleA]

Calling JBar4Ranch...
What about those Ruger Old Army revolvers...looks like you've got both the blue and stainless versions. What say you about rust resistance and cleaning?

Note the Ruger is a modern design so if you're looking for replica cap and ball pistols I guess that would count the Ruger out.

[jason41987]

i wouldnt get a ruger old army, i could get a stainless 1858 clone if i wanted stainless... but i had an 1858 before, and i did like it, but im thinking of a colt model instead due to the styling and handling characteristics

heres a question i have about the 1851/1860 vs the 1858... the 1858 has a top strap that adds strenght, but the colt models have a fixed and solid base pin that the barrel assembly mounts to... so people might look at the two and assume the colts inherently weaker, which could still be true, but how much strength does that large, fixed base pin add to the overall design of the revolver?... i notice the 1873 colt looks like a cross between an 1860 and an 1858

a perception many people hold on these revolvers is that remingtons were stronger, more durable, more reliable, but colts were smoother, and with better handling... is this generally true, or generally a misconception?... how would you describe the differences between them in strength, reliability, and handling?

[Hawg Haggen]

With bp pressures the top strap doesn't matter. I do prefer the Colt design over the Remington.

[45_auto]

Clean ANY black powder revolver as soon as you can after shooting it. I have a stainless Ruger Old Army. I once put off cleaning it for a day or so because it was stainless. It was covered with rust when I took it out to clean it and it took a lot of polishing to get it looking decent again. The hammer still shows some rust stains that won't come off. They're stain-less, not stain-none-at-all.

[jason41987]

its clear the 1873 colt, and 1875 remingtons take a lot from the 1858 remington, the base pin, top strap, and other features of the 1873s frame are borrowed from the 58 and placed on an 1860 grip... so it seems colt thought it needed a top strap as well to be stronger....

but you have a fixed top strap, or a fixed base pin, difference is merely the axis in which the pistol is held together... is an open top colt really that much weaker?.... i wish i had blueprints of the 1860 colt, i could sketch them up and do a stress analysis out of curiosity and it would tell me just how much back pressure would be necessary to damage the wedge holding the front end on, because id have to assume this joint would be the weak point

but i went remington before, but had to sell it... i may go for a colt this time, and if i do im not sure if id go 1851 or 1860, not sure which one is "better" or if its just a preference of style... but id probably go for a 5 1/2 inch 44 caliber model... i know 40 grains is the max on these revolvers, whats the maximum powder charge youve used in the .36 cals?.. i usually see around 25-30

[Rifleman1776]

the 1858 has a top strap that adds strenght, but the colt models have a fixed and solid base pin that the barrel assembly mounts to

The top strap thing about it's being stronger is a myth. The cylinder pin is steel and very strong.
It is a matter of preference.
Blued or stainless is another matter of preference. Do you just want to shoot or are you trying to preserve some tradition.
Either way, both need cleaning after use with black powder or the subsitutes.

[barstoolguru]

and i know what a pain it can be to constantly clean these things

If you don't like dirty pass on a cap and ball, these are dirty guns. you can cut back on the mess using felt pads but I found that lard is a little more nasty but keeps the gun from rusting and it smell like mom's cooking

[jason41987]

ive always used the felt, always thought coating the cylinder with grease was a very messy and pointless thing to do when i never had a problem with the pads

so rifleman1776, you say the fixed steel base pin of the colt offers as much strength as the top strap of the remington model? if so, any idea why colt switched to a top strap construction in 1873?...

if i had to point out any weak point in the open top design of colts, it wouldnt be the pin itself, but the wedge holding the front end to the pin... which i dont think would add much weakness if any, or where it connects together in the lower front corner... but the pin itself looks to have more metal.. looks like theres more metal to the colt pin than the remingtons top strap and bottom strap combined... so hard to say

ill probably go with a colt model this time around.. an 1851 or an 1860... is there any difference to these two mechanically besides the 1851 traditionally being a 36, and the 1860 being a 44?... i might also consider an older walker or dragoon

but anyway, ill try to find stainless steel if i can, but since it seems these colts arent offered in stainless steel that i probably wont worry about it much... i have no problems cleaning after a day of shooting, i was more concerned with longevity with consistant use.. i know there are originals around in very good shape, but hard to say how much theyve actually been used

[wogpotter]

I found some interesting POVs here, but quite a lot of misunderstood stuff as well so here's my input FWIW.

Stainless or blued doesn't matter, from a cleaning POV. You'll have to clean anyway whichever you have. Not because of rust or anything, but so It'll continue to shoot! Most C&B revolvers will bind up to varying degrees after 3~4 cylinders & so you'll have to clean anyway just to keep shoting.

Cleaning between shoots is just damp patch through the bore, another one through the chambers, & wipe down the rear face of the barrel & the front face of the cylinder wipe again with a dry patch.(2 minutes.)

Blue is NOT a tradditional finish, btw, most guns back then were bare metal or brown, so from a cosmetic standpoint get what is visually appealing to you.

Cleaning B/P at the end of a day's shooting has been turned into the chore from hell which, if not done correctly will destroy yoour gun overnight. This is rubbish, quite frankly. I've found that B/P is so much fater & easier to clean than modern smokless that I now find shooting modern more time consuming at the clean up stage.

Can you make B/P cleaning a labor of Herculese? Sure, but why would you? I pop the cylinder out & unscrew the nipples (3~4 minutes).

I remove the wod grip panels if at home (1 minute).

Then I dump everything (except the wood) into a bucket of hot, soapy water.

Next I take a cleaning rod & a patch rubbed with the soft soap & run it through the bore 3~4 times. (1 minute)

Now using the same patch run it through all 6 chambers 4~5 times. (1 1/2 minutes)

Take a clean patch & repeat both the bore & cylinders. (2 1/2 minutes.)

I use a toothpick to hold each nipple & a toothbrush to give it a quick scrub in the hot, soapy water. (5 minutes).

Dump the hot dirty water & refill the bucket with hot clean water. (3 minutes)

Put all the parts & insert & shake, reaise & drain a few times. Flick & shake of extra water. (1 minute).

Wipe everything with paper towels, Use clean, dry patches for the bore & each cylinder. (3~4 minutes).

Slather everything with synthetic motor oil drip it into every nook & cranny. Wipe everything down with a dry rag so the oil gets smeared everywhere. (5 minutes).

Put a dab of grease, never sieze or whatever on the threads of each nipple & screw in. (2 minutes).

Put the grips back on (30 seconds).

You're done, thats a thorough deep down cleaning done at the end of a day's shooting.

Here's my 1858 Remmy after being shot a lot & cleaned this way for a couple of years now. See any rust? I dont. For metal to rust you need metal, air's oxygen & moisture, break the triangle & rust can't form. Thats the job of the oil to cover & blanket the metal.

[L_Killkenny]

See for me the problem doesn't lie in the time it takes to clean after a long"ish" range session. It's that you have to perform the same cleaning for just one cylinder or even one shot. While hunting I may fire 1-10 shots a day, at the range it may be 6-40 shots for a particular gun. Cleaning of my smokeless guns after such use is anywhere from zero to a good whipe down and a patch or two thru the holes. So compared to that BP guns are a PITA.

[jason41987]

also, turns out stainless steel is a tradition finish for 1860 colts... read that before they ended production on these models in the later 1800s, for a number of years they seemed to have offered them in stainless

but.. i think ill go for a blued model... if theres really not that much of a difference in cleaning and longevity then i see absolutely no reason to pay twice the price... and if i wanted the unblued look i could artifically age the bluing for an antiqued look

i liked my old remington but i still think im going to go with a colt.. why?.. havent owned a colt yet and until i do i cant really compare the designs for myself...

so im going for a 5 1/2 inch model in .44... would y'all recommend an 1851 or an 1860?... the frame looks the same on these both, internally theres probably little difference, but i could be wrong... seems like its just an aesthetics/preference thing as well

[rclark]

So compared to that BP guns are a PITA.

Well .. that is part of the draw of BP. Doing what the old timers had to do, just to keep the gun in working condition. If you don't like to clean ... don't shoot BP. Simple as that. I actually enjoy coming home and breaking the gun down and cleaning every part. Then oiling it and putting all back together again. Of course I don't shoot BP every day. Just when it grabs me.... Time to go burn some BP!

As for the question. Blued or Stainless. Still have to clean after every session. Just get'r done. No delay and all will be well.

Ummm, I don't believe stainless guns were introduced until the middle 1960s. Now they did nickel plate them back in the 1800s....

[shafter]

I prefer blued steel because history is the whole appeal behind cap and ball pistols for me.

If you can wash the dishes you can clean a C&B. It isn't hard at all, it just takes a bit longer than smokeless guns.

[Hawg Haggen]

also, turns out stainless steel is a tradition finish for 1860 colts... read that before they ended production on these models in the later 1800s, for a number of years they seemed to have offered them in stainless

Ummm no. The 1860 and 1851 went out of production in 1873. Stainless didn't come about until after the turn of the century. Historically the 1851 came in .36 caliber only.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm more of a "traditionalist" so much prefer the blued. I have a stainless '58 Remington but to be honest, I've never shot it. I just don't like shiny guns - antique, clones, vintage or modern. I have Colt clones - '51, '61, - Remmies - NMA and a Navy and a Rogers & Spencer. All nice revolvers but I still prefer the 1851 Navy - I've owned a number of 'em and am now shooting a Uberti. Open top design with BP is not an issue. The trick with any BP gun - pistol, rifle, fowler, etc. is to use hot soapy water and clean it thoroughly - dry out well and protect metal while not in use. Go with what model/finish that you like . . . you're the one that's going to be shooting it. But, be forewarned . . . one will not suffice . . . they just seem to multiply over time! Good luck and have fun!

[Ozzieman]

I actually find it easier to clean BP revolvers than cartridge guns.
Pull it apart and drop it in hot soapy water and scrub with an old tooth brush, the water needs to be as hot as you can stand. (Just the cylinder and barrel) Let it dry which will take minutes and a light coat of oil
I have one gun that I have owned since the early 70’s. Yes there is some pitting on the barrel and the end looks rough but the gun set in a metal tool box in a Navy armory for over 2 years.
Other than that it shoots great, in fact this gun and another, I shot SASS for over 6 years. I have to say, indoor with a couple of C&B’s is a lot of fun. I still don’t know how any one got killed back in the old west in bars with all that smoke.

[jason41987]

i dont watch a lot of westerns, or movies for that matter, grew up in cities, and im a student in engineering... so, its not like i seen these old revolvers in movies and thought they would be cool or anything like that.. my first experience with single action revolvers was actually handling and shooting one a relative owned when i was younger, and to this date, not without many attempts, have i found another handgun that could equal a colt SAA in handling, pointability, or balance... and good balance in a handgun speaks volumes more to me than magazine capacity, erroneous "stopping power" reports, etc

reason im looking to go even older than that now is because i did own the remington and loved the utlitarian practicality of cap and ball revolvers... even if the entire world runs out of ammunition there will always be the components for gunpowder and soft lead available... heck, they come with their own reloading press built in

so, if the 44 caliber 1851 isnt exactly legit, what is it then? essentially an 1860 frame with an 1851 front end?... i actually prefer the more rustic, simple lines of the 1851 over the 1860.... but one last question to those that have handled them.... how well does the 1851 or 1860 balance when compared to an 1873?

[jmfc606]

I would have to disagree with the person who said not to buy the Ruger Old Army. Other than they are not made anymore and on used ones the prices are creeping upwards I see no reason not to buy a good used one if you find it. They are built like a tank, shoot well, and obviously hold their value. I have one and it's not something I would sell. Good luck, you'll have lots of fun once you start shooting cap and ball guns, They are addictive!

[Hawg Haggen]

so, if the 44 caliber 1851 isnt exactly legit, what is it then? essentially an 1860 frame with an 1851 front end?... i actually prefer the more rustic, simple lines of the 1851 over the 1860.... but one last question to those that have handled them.... how well does the 1851 or 1860 balance when compared to an 1873?

Its the rebated frame and cylinder of the .44 army with the barrel assembly and smaller grip frame of the 51. The 73 and 51 both have the same grip frame and balance very well. The 73 has a shorter barrel so IMHO balances a little better but the 51 is a natural pointer.

[jason41987]

then i think ill get the '51... how would its grip compare with that of the 1858, which i felt fit my hand really well when i had one?

[jason41987]

all thats left for me to decide is whether i want .36 or .44 caliber, 7 1/2 or 5 1/2 inch barrel