The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 25, 2012, 08:27 PM   #126
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,173
Quote:
How big a roll does the pistol play in the military services anyway, the caliber ain't changing any time soon.
It plays little to no role at all.

It's just us as enthusiasts fueling our knowledge to know it all. Which isn't a bad thing. We're on this forum for a common interest/passion.

It's in the sake of knowledge and fun in my opinion. Handguns are a sidearm. For common civilians/armed citizens it's one of the first lines of defense.

That is all..
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 09:28 PM   #127
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
Why do the Navy Seals, FBI, Secret Service, Air Marshals, DHS, Treasury, el al not use Glocks? Because they all chose Sigs. Just learn to live with the fact that Glock is not the answer to "What would be the best pistol to choose if you want the best possible option." Glock is a good pistol and is the best choice for many, just not the choice for the best of the best.
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 09:37 PM   #128
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 850
When the Glock 17 first came on the scene, the marketing was aimed at Collectors, and Gun Shows.

When it was suggested to the boss in Smyrna, GA. that the swing should be first to Law Enforcement, "The Police have Revolvers"? And the Auto pistol was not for them.

Eighteen rounds, with no reload? Did not seem like a worth while argument.

Over a year was lost.
Brit is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 09:53 PM   #129
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmortimer
Why do the Navy Seals, FBI, Secret Service, Air Marshals, DHS, Treasury, el al not use Glocks? Because they all chose Sigs. Just learn to live with the fact that Glock is not the answer to "What would be the best pistol to choose if you want the best possible option." Glock is a good pistol and is the best choice for many, just not the choice for the best of the best.
Seals indeed carry Sigs. Delta Force currently uses Glocks. Sigs are being phased out in the FBI, replaced by Glocks. FBI SWAT and HRT carry either well-smith'd 1911s or Glocks. The Secret Service carry Sigs, as do FAMS. I wouldn't call DHS "best of the best" of anything, so that's an odd inclusion which makes it look like you are cherry-picking examples. The U.S. Marshalls carry Glocks, as do quite a few SPECOPS and SF units of the U.S. Military.

A quick check reveals many "best of the best" agencies - both national and international - which issue Glocks. Your case fails on its merits.

Last edited by zombietactics; November 25, 2012 at 09:59 PM.
zombietactics is offline  
Old November 25, 2012, 11:32 PM   #130
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
"Delta Force currently uses Glocks"

Unless you have personal knowledge, you will not be able to confirm this. And if you had personal knowledge you would not, could not, or should not make any such claim. Also, both Navy Seals and Delta Force can use what they want within reason, so I'm sure some of both use Glocks but we know for sure the Seals mostly use Sigs.

'I wouldn't call DHS "best of the best" of anything"

Agree
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 12:08 AM   #131
Dashunde
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 1,691
Why doesn't the US military use Glocks?

I dont think we really know, do we?
Dashunde is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 12:24 AM   #132
chadio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2011
Posts: 664
If I were a moderator, in accordance with past practice of TFL, I'd lock down this thread due to the (moderator's!!!) commentary getting out of hand
__________________
Ex - Navy, Persian Gulf Veteran. Loved shooting the M14, 1911, M60, M2
chadio is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 06:45 AM   #133
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 1,889
I suspect that even the Navy Seals and Delta Force don't bring pistols to a rifle fight.
Even the police go to a standoff situation with shoulder fired weapons.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 08:06 AM   #134
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.L.E. View Post
I suspect that even the Navy Seals and Delta Force don't bring pistols to a rifle fight.
Even the police go to a standoff situation with shoulder fired weapons.
+1 sidearm of choice is just a sidearm of choice. Lol. However. Really good and civil thread. Don't shut it down.


SIG 1911 XO - Custom SA Mil-Spec 1911 - Colt Golf Cup Trophy 1911 - Colt Series 70 1911 - SIG P226 e2 - BHP Stainless - BHP Blue - W. PPQ - Glock 17,34,19,21,22 - S&W M19-4 - Hk USP 40
Constantine is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 08:34 AM   #135
Crow Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 1,078
Quote:
"Delta Force currently uses Glocks"

Unless you have personal knowledge, you will not be able to confirm this.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=115792

1st SFOD-D is "Delta Force".

I would imagine that LAV would have personal knowledge.

__________________
I am no longer participating in gun forums.

Good luck.
Crow Hunter is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 08:47 AM   #136
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,297
Quote:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=115792

1st SFOD-D is "Delta Force".

I would imagine that LAV would have personal knowledge.
Someone saying, "I can't comment" is proof of use?
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old November 26, 2012, 09:29 AM   #137
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 2,656
Quote:
The U.S. Marshalls carry Glocks, as do quite a few SPECOPS and SF units of the U.S. Military.
I always chuckle whan I hear quotes like "quite a few SPECOPS and SF units of the U.S. Military" use Glocks.

Please provide a list of such units that have officially adopted a Glock pistol.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 09:35 AM   #138
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,877
"If I were a moderator, in accordance with past practice of TFL, I'd lock down this thread due to the (moderator's!!!) commentary getting out of hand"

You'll have to point that out to me. I've just finished reading the whole thread and nowhere has anyones commentary gotten out of hand.

Some of it has been very direct and very blunt, but that is allowable as long as it is referencing statements made, and not directed at an indiviual.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 09:35 AM   #139
Crow Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 1,078
Quote:
Someone saying, "I can't comment" is proof of use?
The fact that he said "no comment" rather than saying, they aren't used by Delta Force lends as much credence to their being used as not being used.

I also know from my Armorer's course that the extended G22 magazine were created per the request of members of a well known SPEC-OPS Unit.

If you do a google search for Delta Force and Glock, you will see alot of references.

Since nothing that Delta does is public knowledge and the MTOE isn't available for public consumption, that comment from LAV is probably a close as you are going to get.

What weapon do you "know" they use?

http://www.americanspecialops.com/sp...pons/glock.php

Is this accurate? Who knows.

Quote:
Delta Force have reportedly been known to use the Glock 22, a full-size pistol chambered in .40 S&W. Delta have a history of preferring .45s such as the venerable 1911, however it's rumored that some operators switched to Glock 22s as they were deemed more reliable in the sandy conditions the unit tends to operate in these days.
The SME involved in this discussion is also knowledgeable:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92567

M4Guru (a Subject Matter Expert):

Quote:
The Glock was chosen universally by the folks that are not tied to the Beretta, FWIW. Different procurement channels, same end results.

To quote LAV and Hackathorn (a pretty good couple of sources on handgun advice), "We live in a Glock world"
Quote:
Yep, some Army folks get Glocks. I haven't carried a Beretta since 2004. The G19 is the most widespread but certainly not the only one.
Since none of it is public consumption, people have to "read between the lines". That might mean different things to different people.
__________________
I am no longer participating in gun forums.

Good luck.

Last edited by Crow Hunter; November 26, 2012 at 09:49 AM.
Crow Hunter is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 09:56 AM   #140
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,386
No clue who or what they were, but once upn a time, I saw a group of guys walking around the FOB carrying assorted rifles(even an M-14!) and wearing Sigs, Berettas, Glocks,a nd maybe a 1911. They were wearing Northface jackets and the old DCUs, no clue who they were, but as preiously stated, norma procurement and normale MTOE obviously didn't apply to them.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 10:03 AM   #141
Crow Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 1,078
Quote:
I just ordered some today and dealer is the same as a standard black version- for those who are into US Spec Ops history a FDE 3rd Gen G22 was specified and purchased by an elite US Army special missions unit- up until now they were the only FDE Glocks ever made

Based on that and the desirability of the OD Green frame Glocks now it would be a wise move to get at least one while they last

I have one each G17 and G22 in Gen 3 and 4 on the way

Be safe

LAV
Quote:
As far as why 40 Glock over the 45 ACP G21 my guess would be magazine capacity and overall size of the gun as two main reasons -the G22 is much easier to manage than a G21 which is a big pistol- why they chose 40 over 9mm your guess is as good as mine; I didn't agree with it then and I don't agree with it now

Be safe

LAV

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102742

Here are another couple of quotes from LAV.

Being that he is very closely associated with Delta, I would make the leap of intuition, that he is referring to their adoption of the G22. Not some other units usage.

__________________
I am no longer participating in gun forums.

Good luck.
Crow Hunter is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 10:15 AM   #142
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 361
Glad there was so much interesting response, thanks. However, trying to direct this thread back to my original question.

What I was trying to get to the bottom of was, in a nutshell: Why do the military (and also some fed agencies) seemingly distrust the "striker fired / no external safeties" approach while the same works so well for hundreds of police departments?

What I wanted to aim at was whether it has to do with the different role of a LEO handgun compared to a military sidearm.
__________________
"Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski
. Savage Axis XP (.223 Rem)
. G17 3rd gen. (9mm)
. Taurus PT22 PLY (.22lr)
simonrichter is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 10:23 AM   #143
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,386
I've always wondered that too. I've often suspecte the reason that some agencies use the Glock versuses others is related to a variety of factors including agency size, types of personnel in the agency, and time spent devoted to firearms training.

For instance, it makes since that the Border Patrol would issue Berettas and HKs because I can believe they devote more time to firearms training whereas the FBI has a whole of sworn gun toting agents that might never ue thier piece in the field and as such, can get by with the lowest, cheapest common denominator, such as a Glock.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 10:50 AM   #144
Technosavant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO area
Posts: 3,877
Quote:
What I was trying to get to the bottom of was, in a nutshell: Why do the military (and also some fed agencies) seemingly distrust the "striker fired / no external safeties" approach while the same works so well for hundreds of police departments?
I'm not fully sure that such is the case. Even some PDs manage to issue contract proposals that may specify hammer fired guns or are ultimately written to give extreme preference to what the PD was wanting to buy anyway (but they have to have a "competition" even if it's just in name only). It seems more to me that the hammer vs. striker argument is a red herring. So long as the primer ignites, why would one care what gun A uses vis a vis gun B? There's advantages and drawbacks to both ways.

The most direct answer to the question posed in your thread title has pretty well been answered- it was not part of the original competition and since then there has not been shown to be enough of a benefit (vs. the costs involved) to justify reopening the issue.

As for what so and so unit/department uses and why, I think gun enthusiasts tend to get WAY too wrapped up in it. I don't really care if no elite unit uses what I have on my hip... I chose my own gun with an eye toward criteria that matter to me... criteria that do not apply to people kicking doors in non permissive environments. They did the same when they chose their sidearms, and they did so using criteria that don't apply to an overweight desk sitter in middle America.
Technosavant is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 11:34 AM   #145
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,297
Quote:
The fact that he said "no comment" rather than saying, they aren't used by Delta Force lends as much credence to their being used as not being used.
No, actually that doesn't match my own experience with OPSEC. Usually the standing rule is to decline to comment whether it is in use or not. Knowledge of not using something can be just as compromising as knowledge of using something. Declining to comment as a matter of course just helps keep people guessing, not to mention working as great misdirection.

I'm not doubting that Delta might use Glocks. But that comment from Vickers means nothing.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old November 26, 2012, 11:42 AM   #146
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
I think we can safely safe that some "operators" choose to use Glocks but I doubt Delta Force has some uniform issue of firearms and while the official pistol of the Seals is the Sig I'm sure some are given permission to use Glocks as well. The description above of the unknown operators having a number of different pistols is probably accurate of what is actully happening at the top of the food chain. For some, the Glock will be the best choice, while others will step up to Sig, HK, 1911, etc. These customized for rough usage 1911s and CZs make sense: http://www.customwinslow.com/#/home
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 11:57 AM   #147
zombietactics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPEMack618
For instance, it makes since that the Border Patrol would issue Berettas and HKs because I can believe they devote more time to firearms training whereas the FBI ...
It might make sense except it doesn't hold up to even minimal scrutiny. FBI pistol training standards are more stringent than USBPS. What you (want to) believe does not enter into the equation.

I'd like to be clear that I am not a Glock fanboi. They aren't even my favorite guns. However, it staggers the imagination to call Glocks "lowest common denominator" ... just doesn't make sense given their popularity with a whole range of people who have sufficient experience to know better, and who get to choose whatever they want.

More to the point of the OP: The US military has an ongoing love affair with manual safeties, DA/SA triggers and hammer-fired pistols. This probably has more to do with tradition and misguided notions of safety than anything else. You won't see a hammer-fired Glock with a manual safety and a true DA-style 11lb first pull anywhere in your future ... so they are out of the running until the brass recognizes that the current standards are wacky.

Last edited by zombietactics; November 26, 2012 at 12:45 PM.
zombietactics is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 12:01 PM   #148
The_Shadow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2009
Location: Southeast LoUiSiAna
Posts: 188
One thing I see as a potential hicup is the U.N. Treaty, many companies have plants in the US now but things could change should the ATT as proposed pass.
__________________
TheSHADOW
The "10mm" I'm Packin', Has The Bullets Wackin', Smakin' & The Slide is Rackin' & Jackin'!
The_Shadow is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 12:09 PM   #149
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 2,656
Quote:
Why do the military (and also some fed agencies) seemingly distrust the "striker fired / no external safeties" approach while the same works so well for hundreds of police departments?
I don't think it has anything to do with "distrust".

I think it has everything to do with the fact that the military already owns hundreds of thousands of M9s that do the job required of them, and there is no feasible economic, performance, or training-related reason to replace them with a striker-fired (or any other) design.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old November 26, 2012, 12:47 PM   #150
Dashunde
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 1,691
Quote:
What I was trying to get to the bottom of was, in a nutshell: Why do the military (and also some fed agencies) seemingly distrust the "striker fired / no external safeties" approach while the same works so well for hundreds of police departments?
I don’t know that the Fed's avoid them specifically for being striker fired without safeties, but in general the question could be looked at in reverse...
"Why do so many police departments use the Glock when our military has largely steered clear of them?"

In short, a huge number of officers pay for their own pistols. The Glocks are very cost-effective and police departments don’t seem swayed by the "Buy American" concept, whereas the Fed's try to where its suitable.
Dashunde is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14249 seconds with 7 queries