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Old November 21, 2012, 11:54 AM   #76
carguychris
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Oh boy, you've done it now. You've awoken him [Glock Kool-Aid man]
Speaking of the proverbial Kool-Aid, it's helpful to remember that in the early 1980s, the benefits of the Glock design weren't exactly obvious.

It would be helpful for some forum members to read some of the gun press reports about the G17 written ca. 1985. Most can be paraphrased as follows:

Such-and-such sent us this peculiar new pistol from an upstart company in Austria. It has a polymer frame and a partially cocked striker-fired trigger system like the Heckler & Koch VP70z. The gun holds 17 rounds, almost as much as the Steyr GB, and it's similarly rather large for a gun that fires such a low-powered cartridge. It has no manual safety and we're not sure what to think of this; the only external safety is a weird lever on the trigger. Like the HK VP70z, the Glock has a spongy and long initial trigger pull, but it has a nice reset and remarkably little felt recoil. The pistol is reasonably accurate although you won't win at Camp Perry with it. It ate every type of ammo we fed it without complaint.

We liked the Glock overall, but we wonder how well the polymer frame will stand up to extended use, and it's hard to say how the market will accept its peculiar design and the absence of an external safety lever. Time will tell.


Hardly the glowing reviews we are accustomed to today.
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Old November 21, 2012, 07:27 PM   #77
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Instead of using real Glocks I'd like to see any one of our US pistol makers just outright copy and slightly improve the Glock perfection in some key areas (mostly grip/feel) similar to the Caracal and S&W SD VE but made here and to a higher standard than any of them.
Seems that could be done, with a optional manual safety, at prices well below the Beretta.

I dont care if its copying or violates someones this copywrite or that patent... other companies and countries have been stealing and duplicating our stuff since we started.
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Old November 21, 2012, 08:31 PM   #78
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Thats because we can't sue them in their country and win, but they can in ours.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:42 PM   #79
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We liked the Glock overall, but we wonder how well the polymer frame will stand up to extended use, and it's hard to say how the market will accept its peculiar design and the absence of an external safety lever. Time will tell.
Yeah its only been close to 30 years now that they have been on the market. Not nearly long enoght to see how they stand up. Oh and I guess all those guns out there with over 100,000rounds through them with nothing but spring replacement aren't an indicitator either.
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:50 AM   #80
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Yeah its only been close to 30 years now that they have been on the market. Not nearly long enoght to see how they stand up. Oh and I guess all those guns out there with over 100,000rounds through them with nothing but spring replacement aren't an indicitator either.
I believe that to post you're quoting was an example of what a review would have looked like in '85 when the testing was going on - before Glock had earned it's reputation.
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:56 AM   #81
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I'm in the middle on the long term poly question - the mechanicals have certainly proven themselves by now, but 30 years is about where I'd expect to see even the best of poly's/plastics start to dry, haze, flake, become brittle or deteriorate in some way.
If the polys exhibit any shrinkage it may pull away from the metal frames causing it to all loosen internally?

I'm curious what they'll be like at 75 or 100... our kids will find that out.
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Old November 22, 2012, 09:52 PM   #82
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I believe that to post you're quoting was an example of what a review would have looked like in '85 when the testing was going on - before Glock had earned it's reputation.
That was exactly my point.

Many mid-80s press reviews of the Glock 17 were lukewarm at best; most reviewers acknowledged that the gun functioned very well but questioned its then-unconventional design and construction, and some of the more conservative gun writers were openly hostile to the idea of an autoloader without a decocker or a manual thumb safety.

Of course, the Glock shares many of its design features with the now largely forgotten HK VP70z, but the press didn't particularly like that gun either.

How times have changed...
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:22 AM   #83
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The elite ACE(also called SFOD-D or "Delta") allows troops to pack the Glock 21 .45acp or a 1911a1 pistol. Some web weenies say Delta/ACE now uses the Glock 22 .40 but I think they mean the larger Glock 21 .45acp.
Negative, it is the G22 they are using. You will also see the G19 in use primarily by special ops as well as the SFG;s. Even when you watch Guns and Ammo TV and they do the Special Forces segement with Kyle Lamb you will see the active duty SF guys packing G19's.
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Old November 23, 2012, 06:03 AM   #84
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I'm in the middle on the long term poly question - the mechanicals have certainly proven themselves by now, but 30 years is about where I'd expect to see even the best of poly's/plastics start to dry, haze, flake, become brittle or deteriorate in some way.
If the polys exhibit any shrinkage it may pull away from the metal frames causing it to all loosen internally?

I'm curious what they'll be like at 75 or 100... our kids will find that out.
Nylon, the frame material of Glocks, has been around for over 75 years. It was invented in 1935. The properties of the material (including how they change with age) are well understood.

This should be good for a chuckle...

http://www.ehow.com/about_5045721_en...s-plastic.html
"...plastic poses special problems for landfills. Most plastic is not biodegradable, which means it does not break down to its simple component parts. This means it remains present in landfills indefinitely."
So while the rest of the world is worrying that disposable plastic items will last forever in landfills, the gun community is worrying that durable goods made from high-strength, high-quality plastics will become useless in a generation or two.
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Old November 23, 2012, 06:39 AM   #85
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Doesn't the rest of the stuff in landfills stay there forever, too?

But regarding Glocks, I suppose in some ways, as far as any military is concerned, it's just another pistol and as such, way down on the list of important things to worry about. Pistols are generally not issued very widely in most armies, although some units may have a higher proportion. Tankers usually have a pistol but even that seems to be changing. My son was a tank crewman for three years, of which about 15 months in Iraq. His first photo sent home showed him with his pistol in a drop leg holster and a shotgun, of all things. I think he told me that was just for the photo (which suggests all photographic evidence is suspect). Anyway, they later turned in their pistols. Everyone carried either a carbine or rifle. All the other photos had tank guns.

One could just as easily ask why doesn't the army used Brand X pistol. After all, not every other army uses Glocks. If you like Sigs or Berettas or S&W, a Glock is just another pistol. Beretta just got in first.
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Old November 23, 2012, 04:53 PM   #86
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Doesn't the rest of the stuff in landfills stay there forever, too?
Most trash rots, rusts, oxidizes, biodegrades, etc. There are, of course, other exceptions besides plastic. Glass is one that comes to mind.
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:02 PM   #87
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Tankers usually have a pistol but even that seems to be changing. My son was a tank crewman for three years, of which about 15 months in Iraq. His first photo sent home showed him with his pistol in a drop leg holster and a shotgun, of all things. I think he told me that was just for the photo (which suggests all photographic evidence is suspect). Anyway, they later turned in their pistols. Everyone carried either a carbine or rifle. All the other photos had tank guns.
While looking into .45 ACP weapons still in use by the U S military I found that the M3 Greasgun was still being used as late as 2008 at least.
There were two older armored vehicles that had weapons racks that were in spots too small to fit a rack for the M4 carbine. One rack was actually on the inside surface of the vehicle comander's hatch cover, so he could grab the Greasegun on the way out of the hatch.
I don't remember which vehicles these were, not the more recent designs apparently.
I think these Greaseguns were conversions to 9mm, but not sure about that. The original WW2 design of the Greasegun called for easy conversion to 9mm for use by allies.
A commercial grade 9mm is stocked for the converted Greasegun, the STAGNAG round is apparently too hot for reliability. They probably use the STANAG 9mm regardless.

PS
I have no interest in owning a Glock for several reasons, but mainly because one would have to be an expert on the manufacturing history and totaly dissasemble a used or NOS Glock to determine if it has had all the factory replacement parts called for in the safety recalls of almost every model of Glock ever marketed.
If I was absolutely sure that the pistol was as good as it could be built, I'd still only use it as a lightweight for special purposes. I just can't put any faith in a plastic framed pistol for extended serious uses.

As for degraded plastic, several of the factory recalls have been due to that. Pieces of plastic breaking loose inside, and an early issue of the sand colored pistol degrading within months due to a reaction with the pigments used.

As far as I'm concerned the Glock has no resale value. I just wouldn't risk money on a used one.

PS
The Glock is the only handgun I've heard of catching fire in a glove box.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; November 23, 2012 at 05:18 PM.
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:07 PM   #88
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So while the rest of the world is worrying that disposable plastic items will last forever in landfills, the gun community is worrying that durable goods made from high-strength, high-quality plastics will become useless in a generation or two.
The environmental conditions above the surface, particularly as regards the presence of UV radiation and large temperature swings, are radically different than those in the depths of a landfill. Just saying.
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:38 PM   #89
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Never have seen any plastic that the sun will not degrade. Might be a plastic or two or so that can sit in the sun, but I have never seen it.
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:59 PM   #90
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I wouldn't own a Glock over any other pistol in particular but I did own one at one time (along with about 15 or 20 other different automatics). I found it to be quite practical, provided one was happy with whatever cartridge it was chambered for. But pistols are highly personal things, I suppose, and I can see someone not caring for its peculular features, same as most any other pistol.

The claim that it wouldn't stand up to extended serious use, I'd have to say that is contrary to other claims. However, that's not one of my requirements in a handgun anyway. I also wouldn't worry about it degrading in the sun, unless you're expecting to leave it lying outside on the deck for several days. By the way, go by the local playground and see what kind of shape the plastic equipment is in.
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Old November 23, 2012, 07:45 PM   #91
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By the way, go by the local playground and see what kind of shape the plastic equipment is in.
Automobile dash boards are designed to resist sunlight, but I've seen far too many to count that had to be replaced after a few years in the Florida sun.
I've also seen many plastic parts and such on boats that would fall apart in your hands after a few years.
Broken up plastic lawn chairs and play ground equipment are a common sight at the dump.
But the point that few handguns are exposed to sunlight for hours on end is valid.
The black pigment normaly used by Glock is UV resistent, I have several RV bins of a similar plastic that have withstood near ten years of exposure to the sun while other bins a few feet away have become so brittle they shattered when I went to move them.

They sand colored frames are supposed to be okay now, but they haven't been in widespread use long enough to say for sure if they'd hold up to tropical sun.

Another potential problem of the glock is how they come apart when a casehead ruptures. A P-35 or 1911 with a casehead blow out will usually require a new magazine and new pair of grips, while a Glock frame/grip will shatter like a jelly jar in your hand.
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Old November 23, 2012, 08:37 PM   #92
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The environmental conditions above the surface, particularly as regards the presence of UV radiation and large temperature swings, are radically different than those in the depths of a landfill. Just saying.
As I pointed out earlier, Nylon has been around for nearly 80 years, and it wasn't the first plastic invented. The issues associated with UV exposure are well known, and some poking around will demonstrate that testing has been done to determine the effects of UV exposure on Glock frames. UV exposure equivalent to 100 years of continuous exposure will not compromise the mechanical properties of the frame although it might look the worse for wear. I doubt many of us leave our guns exposed to UV all day, every day, but if you know someone like that, you might warn them to use a steel or aluminum framed gun if they want it to still be in perfect condition in 100 years.
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Automobile dash boards are designed to resist sunlight, but I've seen far too many to count that had to be replaced after a few years in the Florida sun.
I live in TX, and I've seen the same thing with poor quality dash boards. However, the dash in my 1990 Accord lasted 14 years and still looked new when I sold the car. Never was in the garage a day. UV and plastics are known quantities. If a manufacturer cares about the durability of their product, then they can easily deal with the issue constructively.
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I have several RV bins of a similar plastic that have withstood near ten years of exposure to the sun while other bins a few feet away have become so brittle they shattered when I went to move them.
That's the key. It depends on whether or not the manufacturer takes the necessary steps required to make the product last.
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A P-35 or 1911 with a casehead blow out will usually require a new magazine and new pair of grips, while a Glock frame/grip will shatter like a jelly jar in your hand.
I read an interesting analysis on this some years back. Suffice it to say, that some experts are of the opinion that a polymer grip frame is actually an asset during a catastrophic incident due to the way that polymer absorbs and dissipates energy compared to wooden grips, for example.
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Old November 24, 2012, 06:48 AM   #93
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Obviously, not all plastics are alike. If they made a pistol frame out of the same plastic that peanuts come in, it should be nearly indestructible. But I couldn't tell you anything about the plastics themselves no more than I could tell you anything about the finish that Glock uses on the slides. Speaking on behalf of Glock, I'd say one of the reason it is such a popular pistol is because even though it isn't stainless, the finish on the metal parts seems very durable. Perhaps people assume all guns are like that. It usually isn't mentioned when Glocks are discussed. But it happens to be less expensive than other pistols of equal quality, mostly.

How common is casehead failure in a pistol cartridge anyway, assuming it's a new factory round? While I realize that it is possible to blow up a handgun, all the ones on display that were blown up are made of steel--but the ammunition probably wasn't factory ammo.
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Old November 24, 2012, 07:19 AM   #94
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I would have thought the Steyr AUG would have answered whether or not plastic is strong enough. Those plastic magazines will be around long after the last AK and AR magazines have rusted into globs.
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Old November 24, 2012, 09:13 AM   #95
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Yes, if you left a plastic framed gun sitting outside in direct sunlight for 10+ years, it is possible that the UV radiation might degrade it to the point that it becomes brittle.

However, I work in an industry that uses plastic parts that are continuously exposed to weathering and direct sunlight and we warrant our product for 10 years. Carbon black is great for UV resistance.

In a weapon left exposed to the elements and sunlight for 10+, weathering would also have rusted the gun to near uselessness as well, even if it had an all aluminum or worse, steel frame.

M16's have been using plastic grips since the 1960s in military service. The HK M23 has been in service since the early 1990's, I haven't heard of any of them disintergrating.

I don't think that the plastic frame is anything that would keep a weapon from becoming an issued weapon.

The SCAR has a plastic lower, the AUG has a plastic frame and even plastic trigger components and it is has been in service since the 1980's.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:39 AM   #96
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Carbon black is great for UV resistance.
That's precisely what makes Glock frames both black and UV resistant.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:40 AM   #97
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The US Government contracted 22,000 S&W SW9VE for the AF war.

A SW9VE is not a Glock, but a Glock is not an SW9VE. Both are very good gun's, one's USA!
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:53 AM   #98
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The US Government contracted 22,000 S&W SW9VE for the AF war.

A SW9VE is not a Glock, but a Glock is not an SW9VE. Both are very good gun's, one's USA!
S&W was low bidder and these guns arent for our troops. They are to arm the AF forces that we are training. You know, the same people that are shooting our troops in the back with them.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:56 AM   #99
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"However, the dash in my 1990 Accord lasted 14 years and still looked new when I sold the car. Never was in the garage a day. UV and plastics are known quantities. If a manufacturer cares about the durability of their product, then they can easily deal with the issue constructively."

Please consider that the auto glass in your Honda effectively blocks almost all UV sunlight so that is to be expected. Quality plastic will last longer but the sun will "win." Guns will not be exposed to constant sunlight so the plastic should not be an issue and can be replaced if necessary.
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Old November 24, 2012, 12:08 PM   #100
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I rountinely tout the virtues of Glocks regardless of how long the poly lasts, but the one thing that bothers me is how that poly gets rubbed, polished, gouged, scratched and generally worn away, especially the exposed grip... none of it is really repairable without serious mods, stippling, etc...

I was comparing gunbroker.com examples of LEO trade-ins for the S&W 5906 and for the Glock 19 just last night.
The thing that struck me was how easily the S&W's could be stripped, bead-blasted and made to look new again with a little elbow grease and minimal expense.

The Glocks on the other hand.. they're far more involved, the finish much more difficult to replicate and the poly is nearly impossible to make look Glock-stock-new again.
Once its worn its downhill from there without obvious modifications.

Funny thing is.. the used Glocks, worn and all, still sell for more $$.
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