The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 19, 2012, 04:18 PM   #26
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,422
I would say the Abrams tank, especially the M-1A2 standard, is the best in the world, but then again, as a Cavalry man, I may be biased.

Furthermore, to reiterate the point already made, during the JCP trial, the Glock had nowhere near the brand recognition it does today, nor was is assembled in the States yes nor did it have an external saftey.

furthermore still, to adapt a new pistol now would require massive expenditures on magazines, spare parts, holsters, mag pouches, cleaning kits, cleaning kit pouches, manuals, posters, etc.

Also, the Beretta is proven preformer, even 9x19 hardball is about worthless as around, whereas, when was the last time Austria went to war?

And in a bit of personal experience, I employed my M-9 exactly once, and honestly, I could have used my M-4 just as easily, so it wasn't a game changer, I would have just as soon ditched it and my five mags for it and been that much lighter on my feet.

Even though as a Southern, I am jealous of the boys in MEU(SOC) getting new M-45s.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 04:25 PM   #27
insaneranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Posts: 208
It would appear that the 9mm is here to stay & like it or not, it makes sense. The 9mm round is used all over the world & is easily available to our military worldwide & it's inexpensive. Beretta also just got another 5 year contract so the M9 is going to be around for a while longer. The contract with Colt is going downhill, mostly because of the junk 1911's Colt's producing for trial testing. Colt offered lifetime replacement of all pistols, but then failed to harden the steel where it needs it most. Cost does play some role in deciding, but the military will never adopt a 1911 .45 pistol unless manufacturers keep cost down and improve upon the original mil-spec design. By improve, I mean to make the metal stronger than the original 1911's to handle the newer high performance .45 rounds. Until then, Colt's 1911's will keep breaking and M9's will stay on top.
insaneranger is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 05:02 PM   #28
simonrichter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Austria
Posts: 363
Quote:
"Because the U.S. doesn't need cruise missile bases in Austria." LOL, there's more truth to that statement than you would probably believe. Defense spending is all about politicians making money for their buddies.
what a pity then we Austrians are still neutral and have no NATO membership.
simonrichter is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 05:23 PM   #29
DarthPete
Member
 
Join Date: April 9, 2012
Posts: 15
If I recall correctly Glock did a safety prototype in a bid for a british military contract. It was in some horrible place, like a similar size and position to the mag release.

I can only imagine the only reason why they don't have a manual safety option now ala smith and wesson M&P, is it would be admitting defeat to the existing safeties. You know, like the safety on the trigger. Which keeps the trigger from being pulled, unless the trigger is pulled. ;P
DarthPete is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 05:28 PM   #30
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
The contract with Colt is going downhill, mostly because of the junk 1911's Colt's producing for trial testing. Colt offered lifetime replacement of all pistols, but then failed to harden the steel where it needs it most.
Umm. What exactly are you talking about? The Colt M45 contract is going anywhere but downhill.

MARSOC tested the Colt submittals to failure (little cleaning/lubrication, firing full of dirt/sand/mud). That was the point of the test. And Colt still won. When the pistols reached the point of failure (cracks at the forward slide serrations and failure of the guide rod on some pistols), Colt revised the design to make an excellent and proven design (Colt XSE/Rail Gun) even better.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 05:31 PM   #31
Idahoser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: West TN
Posts: 242
try to get hold of a movie called "The Pentagon Wars", old '90s HBO movie. Explains a lot.
Idahoser is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 06:59 PM   #32
Mike38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 1,160
Why doesn’t the US Military use Glock pistols?
Because they want to hit what they are aiming at.
Mike38 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 07:11 PM   #33
insaneranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Posts: 208
Quote:
Umm. What exactly are you talking about?
Here's one example. http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20...ing-colt-guns/

Colt is going back and retesting, but looks like a lot of 1911's will be replaced early.
insaneranger is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 07:36 PM   #34
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
I could see a case made the ergos of the Glock might not meet the standard. Glock grip and glock angle, real or unreal could well be very real with the top brass.

The M16 in part was supposedly chosen because it was so suitable for the average soldier. There could be those who feel the ergos of the Glock, in addition to the lack of an external safety make it a less prime choice than something else.

And before the flames start, yes I know many military forces and elite units use the Glock. The US military is very political and believe it or not, its even possible that some within the military many not favor the Glock. Probably the biggest factor overall is the current investment in Beretta and politics.
__________________
Molon Labe

Last edited by BGutzman; November 19, 2012 at 08:12 PM.
BGutzman is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 07:41 PM   #35
lamarw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2010
Location: Lake Martin, AL
Posts: 1,744
I am not certain, but does Glock fulfill the requirements of the "Buy American Act"?

This is Congressionally mandated in law.

Most citizens do not realize Congress is responsible for the laws of the land and the budget. They are the ones responsible for taxation, the budget, spending, and our horrible deficit. They are the legislative branch and also responsible for our Rights to Bare Arms. Is is not the Executive Branch of the American Government.
lamarw is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 07:42 PM   #36
tdrizzle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2007
Location: St Paul
Posts: 150
Because only gunboard fanboys are concerned with what kind of handgun grunts carry. Grunts carry what they're told, whatever they might prefer, and wish it weighed less. Despite whatever anyone writes about it, the need to use a handgun in modern combat is pretty rare, and when the military has one that works, at a cost they can get in their budgets, it'll be issued for a long time. Maybe as long as the .45 was. The M9 is already more than a third of the way to that mark.

They still use B52s. Why not use Berettas into the late 21st century?
tdrizzle is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 07:56 PM   #37
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 5,947
They don't issue Glocks as a general duty gun because they have had a contract with Beretta since 1985. Back in the early 80's the military set forth specifications for features they wanted in a new handgun. After testing various guns the Beretta and Sig passed all of the requirements and Beretta under bid them. Glock was not in the running because they do not make a gun that met the specifications.

You can bet Glocks are used if needed/wanted in Special Forces applications. As well as most any gun. This is why some 1911's, S&W revolvers, H&K's, Sigs,and yes even Glocks are often seen in soldiers holsters.

If/when the military decides it wants a new handgun, or any other piece of equipment. they will write up the specifications they are looking for. To be honest they often pre-determine which product they want and write the specs so that only the option they want meets the specs. Any company that can make a gun that meets all the specs and will sell at the lowest price wins the contract. A Glock could be the next military contract if the specs are written in different way, but not with current requirements.
jmr40 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 08:10 PM   #38
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,077
Quote:
i would want/hope a US military would have a US made side arm
and to my knowledge they do FN,Baretta,Colt to name a few
Beretta is Italian. FN is from Belgium.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 09:06 PM   #39
insaneranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Posts: 208
Quote:
Beretta is Italian.
The M9's are all made in the U.S. by Beretta USA.
insaneranger is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 09:20 PM   #40
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,440
Quote:
Why doesn't the US military use Glocks?
Because we arn't a third world country.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 09:35 PM   #41
igousigloo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2011
Location: central Ohio
Posts: 135
When I was in the Military, a hand gun was not part of our use. Everyone carried a rifle and wanted nothing more. The only ones with hand guns were radio operators and Officers. If they were close enough for a handgun then throw a grenade!
igousigloo is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 10:01 PM   #42
trg42wraglefragle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 834
I have heard the the UK military is changing to a Glock.
But have had to have a manual safety added.

I think it was more a case of them being cheaper other than better than the competition.
trg42wraglefragle is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 10:08 PM   #43
plouffedaddy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 3,237
Quote:
If I recall correctly Glock did a safety prototype in a bid for a british military contract. It was in some horrible place, like a similar size and position to the mag release.
The Israelis used a G17 with a thumb safety for many years (I think they still may)... A few were imported and they pop up on gunbroker from time to time.
__________________
Mrgunsngear's Youtube Channel
Certified Glock Armorer
plouffedaddy is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 10:35 PM   #44
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,345
Quote:
MARSOC tested the Colt submittals to failure (little cleaning/lubrication, firing full of dirt/sand/mud). That was the point of the test. And Colt still won.
Colt "won" because the requirements of the competition basically mandated it be a 1911 style pistol without actually using the term 1911. It had to even be able to use 1911 mags currently in stock. If a 1911 is what you want, might as well be Colt.

As others have mentioned, the mandate is that it must be made in the US, not that it has to be made by a US company. That is why FN, HK, Beretta, etc. have plants in this country, to satisfy those orders.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 10:42 PM   #45
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,778
Quote:
Why doesn't the US military use Glocks?
Because the .mil drinks "Powder, Beverege, Flavored", not Kool-Aid.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 10:43 PM   #46
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
Here's one example. http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20...ing-colt-guns/

Colt is going back and retesting, but looks like a lot of 1911's will be replaced early.
Old news, buddy. Those are the results of the the exact tests to failure I mentioned in my previous e-mail. Colt has already made the design changes (revised serration and guide rod designs) to remedy these (highly unlikely under regular use) failures and the Colt M45 CQBP has been accepted by MARSOC.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 10:59 PM   #47
1hogfan83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2011
Location: Fayetteville AR
Posts: 374
Glock won't let the u.s. have their guns do to production rights issues. What it all comes down to is money. The U.S. would be able to change anything they wanted to about the gun and Glock would have none of it. Too many other countries knocking on their doors to waste time kissing U.S. butt. The HK and the Sig scored higher overall but money plays a factor again. Money money money. SIG and HK are expensive and Glock won't give up their guns. Germans are hard headed.
__________________
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19
"I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee
1hogfan83 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 11:10 PM   #48
ltc444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
The answer is quite simple. The glock does not meet the US procurement specifications. I have not looked at the specs in some time but my memory is that the specs requires an external safety.

At the time the Beretta was adopted, the CZ75 was the favorite/best pistol in the competition. Unfortunately, it was manufactured in a Communist Block Country. Therefore, it was eliminated from consideration even though it preformed significantly better than the Beretta.

The 9mm vs 45ACP was decided on two issues. Politically the US wanted NATO to adopt the 5.56 therefore we traded the 45 for the 9. The second issue was logistics. You can pack a lot more 9mm in the space required for the 45ACP.

Historically the 7.62 replaced the 30-06 because it required 1/3 less space than did the 30-06, allowed a shorter action, and the existing manufacturing facilities required minimal modification.
ltc444 is offline  
Old November 19, 2012, 11:19 PM   #49
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,345
Quote:
Glock won't let the u.s. have their guns do to production rights issues. What it all comes down to is money. The U.S. would be able to change anything they wanted to about the gun and Glock would have none of it. Too many other countries knocking on their doors to waste time kissing U.S. butt.
Do you have a reference as to where you got that information from?
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old November 20, 2012, 12:02 AM   #50
1hogfan83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2011
Location: Fayetteville AR
Posts: 374
I couldnt find the exact wording you were looking for but I did find something out. Glock wasnt even at the 1983 trials, the U.S. requested that they be their but Glock stated that they did not have enough time. They never even had a trial before the M9 was adopted. Although I cannot totally prove that total arms production control was the controling factor, isn't a very odd coincidence (sp) that all M9's are made in the U.S.? Before that, all 1911 were made in the U.S. Atleast Uncle Sam tries to help the economy, or did, anyway. BTW, None of the pistols at the first two initial trials passed. These included I believe atleast two FN's, maybe three, two HK's, the same 1911A1, and some other off the wall names, I think one was Star? I cant remember if Sig was involved. Anyway, I am very certain, I dont trust little birds on my shoulder, that total production control was a large decision factor, if you owned a gun company, would you want people messing with your baby? But, then again it may have turned out for the better, Im sure Glock is doing well.
__________________
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19
"I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee
1hogfan83 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13734 seconds with 7 queries