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Old November 15, 2012, 04:51 AM   #1
Sevens
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These "new" odd calibers -- alive or dying?

I like to read gun magazines...don't pay for 'em anymore, my brother in law gets 'em and forwards them to me, but I've also kept all the magazines I've gotten since I was a kid and I've bought large lots of them for pennies at gun shows over the years. And I read through them in order -- which is kind of funny because it's like a time capsule, especially when you read through them in order and you see these new guns & products develop and you also see these new writers pop on to the scene where before they weren't heard of.

ANYWAY, I'm reading today about the new Hornady .17 HM2, this is the one that followed the .17 HMR which the magazines just gushed over and they made it sounds like every gun owner in all the land bought 3 of them in the first week the round was out. (the .17HMR, not the HM2.) This mag is from 2004, I think.

In any case, I'm wondering how this short string of a ZILLION new cartridges has fared? Anyone who cares at all about the .327 Federal Magnum knows that I'm a fan of that obscure(ish) one, but I'm curious about all the others. It just doesn't seem like we have too many folks here in our forum that ever, EVER discuss loads for the .45 GAP, for example. Or the .480 Ruger. I'll bet some of you have never even heard of the .32 NAA.

I'm not much of a rifle guy, so I'm really curious about all the Ultra-mags, the RUMs, the Super-Short mags, all the new cartridges that just seemed to flood the market in a short span. They provided something that seemed like a good or marketable idea, but did folks STICK with them? Why does it seem like nobody in our forum ever discusses them?

We have any fans of these rounds? I know that the easy answer (and FAR too typical answer) from most anyone that doesn't dink around with anything out of the mainstream is to froth a bit, preach about how they offer "NOTHING!" and "answers a question nobody asked" and 3 or 4 other very worn, lame and re-tread quips that generally only spew rhetoric and attempt to get the hackles up of anyone who likes one of those obscure rounds -- so that's really not what I'm asking for here.

And I'm not talking about otherwise niche or unpopular rounds or even very old and nearly dead rounds, I'm really talking about the big craze of stuff in the last 10 or so years that seemed to just blast on the scene at dang near the same exact time.

Anyone?
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Old November 15, 2012, 05:19 AM   #2
Nathan
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I like 17 HMR, 6.5 Grendel, 300 WSM, 300 Blackout and 300 RUM.

17 HMR is a 22 with quality bullets. Good cost vs gain balance there, IMHO.

6.5 Grendel has great ballistics, but ammo cost is high and clear purpose is unclear...hunting??

300 ACC Blackout is a 7.62 x 39 for AR's. Super SHTF round, but not popular enough yet. I might get an upper for fun.

300 WSM - This caliber in a 26" barrel and 190 gr bullets is a thing of beauty. Any large 308 cal purchaser really ought to be asking why not the 300 WSM. It is ballistically king of the 300's. Bigger is excess. Smaller less useful!

300 RUM - super cartridge out to a mile. Good launch pad for 240gr plus VLD's. 30" barrel, weight, big scope required! A poor man's 338 Lapua!

I own the 300 WSM. Others have not moved me enough!
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Old November 15, 2012, 08:33 AM   #3
Mike Irwin
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It's always been this way, even in the early days of metallic cartridges.

Each company hopes to capture a bigger share of an ultimately limited market by introducing thier own cartridges in their own guns, while others are introducing new cartridges just for the hell of it.

The market place makes the determination on what lives or dies.
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Old November 15, 2012, 08:45 AM   #4
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300 ACC Blackout is a 7.62 x 39 for AR's. Super SHTF round, but not popular enough yet. I might get an upper for fun.
Actually the 300 ACC is based off the 300 Wisper and was designed to run subsonic with a supresser and heavy bullets. It does fairly well supersonic with lighter bullets as well but is in no way made to compete with the 7.62x39. The 6.8 SPC is more comparable to the 7.62 but doesn't have the feeding issues in an AR platform associated with the heavily tapered 7.62 cartridge.
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Old November 15, 2012, 09:24 AM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens
ANYWAY, I'm reading today about the new Hornady .17 HM2, this is the one that followed the .17 HMR which the magazines just gushed over and they made it sounds like every gun owner in all the land bought 3 of them in the first week the round was out. (the .17HMR, not the HM2.) This mag is from 2004, I think.

In any case, I'm wondering how this short string of a ZILLION new cartridges has fared? Anyone who cares at all about the .327 Federal Magnum knows that I'm a fan of that obscure(ish) one, but I'm curious about all the others. It just doesn't seem like we have too many folks here in our forum that ever, EVER discuss loads for the .45 GAP, for example. Or the .480 Ruger. I'll bet some of you have never even heard of the .32 NAA.

I'm not much of a rifle guy, so I'm really curious about all the Ultra-mags, the RUMs, the Super-Short mags, all the new cartridges that just seemed to flood the market in a short span. They provided something that seemed like a good or marketable idea, but did folks STICK with them? Why does it seem like nobody in our forum ever discusses them?
17HM2: Silly idea. Hoped for success based on HMR. Serves no useful purpose. Doesn't do anything a 22LR won't do, won't do anything the HMR or 22mag will do. Doesn't even fill a niche. Ammo way too expensive. Pointless.

Super-Short Mags: Niche cartrdiges, I suspect killed by the failure of Winchester. At any other time, would have probably made it. Browning and Winchester only made guns for a couple years, at most. They weren't "needed" and never had time to fill their niche, though I think they would have. The 243WSSM and 25WSSM in particular.

45GAP: Much like the HM2, this is Glock trying to capitalize on name recognition and have their own cartridge. It's like the 40SW to the 10mm, except this time with no significant backing from enough agencies to jumpstart the sales. It's practically an admission by Glock that their grips are ridiculously huge, which I like since I have big hands but most people don't.

Any other questions?
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Old November 15, 2012, 10:23 AM   #6
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Anybody remember the .451 Datonics?....suppose to be kind of a 45 ACP magnum. Same length case but thinner walls to hold more powder, needed a heavier recoil system to protect the gun.

I toured the Datonic's factory and they gave me the super duper recoil spring set up and a reamer for making .451 brass out of 45 ACP or 308 cases.

Never could figure out why one needed a 45 ACP magnum. Still have the reamer and recoil set up. Been in my junk drawer for over 30 years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

My kid helped one of his friends move and he gave my kid (Me) a bunch of ammo, including two boxes of that 223 WSSM............wth... looks like a bullet stuck on a can of powder. What for, long range Varmits? My 204 Ruger doees that.

The 204 is one that found the nitch, I like it.

Now to find someone who needs some 223 WSSM ammo.
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Old November 15, 2012, 10:31 AM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
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SW's 356 TSW - remember that - you could even get a special 940 in that caliber. The semi's are probably useless. The revolvers could chamber regular 9mm.
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:12 AM   #8
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the magazines just gushed over and they made it sounds like every gun owner in all the land bought 3 of them in the first week the round was out.
That's how they sell us new stuff nowadays. They tell us what we like. TV shows, products, music. This is the funniest new show that everyone is talking about...(huh?)...this is the best new round that everyone you don't know is using...(what?)...People are flocking to the stores to buy the new...(sigh)...

I think it all started when they hired a bunch of girls to scream while The Beatles came off the plane from Europe. I think they should do commercials for the new super Bubba Magnums with girls screaming behind the line (EEEEEEKKKKK! 300 super bubba Magnum! EEEKKK!)
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Old November 15, 2012, 02:02 PM   #9
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Okay, as I said, I've read full volumes of magazines running from the mid-1970s thru today. I don't live under a rock, I *do* understand how gun magazines push an agenda and attempt to deliver for an industry, I truly do. But the way the .17 HMR was picked up by the shooting public was a reality, not magazine marketing & conjecture.

In the article talking of the then-new .17 HM2, they were very clear that the round itself was developed hand in hand with the .17 HMR, but it's release was well-delayed as Hornady was the only source for the bullets and they couldn't even keep up with the demand for the .17 HMR, so they really wanted to delay the intro of the .17 HM2. In any case, the article talked about the extreme accuracy of the .17 HM2 compared to the .22LR and the idea that just about -any- gun that was designed to run .22LR could easily be adapted (by a manufacturer, obviously) for .17 HM2 and the ammo would be much less expensive than the .17 HMR.

I never fell for either round, matter of fact--I've never been drawn to the .22 WMR either, so I don't have a dog in the fight. But it seems very easy to believe that if you put a high-quality, new tech bullet in the place of a 100+ year old designed heeled slug that looks like a dry, crusty booger -- it's likely to be a bit more accurate. The industry never delivered in making all kinds of .22 HM2 guns, but the idea seems rational even if it wasn't popular.

As to the .45 GAP, this one seems to actually anger people and I suppose things just plain get this way when you attempt to go head to head with American history. Fundamentally, with the emotion stripped from it, the idea behind the round makes a heap of sense IMO -- you take a 100+ year old round that runs a VERY low (for these days) pressure and you shorten it, ramp the pressure up a bit and you can replicate it in a smaller package.

Problem is, it would be like inventing a new lightbulb that works just as well, is maybe a bit brighter, uses just a bit less electricity, is a bit more durable, but has a screw-in base with a left-hand thread that is too small to fit every existing light fixture on the planet and the public just thinks you are an IDIOT for creating this ignorant product and they get royally offended at it.
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Old November 15, 2012, 04:14 PM   #10
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I really really like .17 HMR. I think it is a brilliant little cartridge that is very capable against varmint up to the size of coyote. Pinpoint accuracy.

I think that if I ever purchased a .17 HM2 that I would probably like it a lot. it would probably do everything I need it to do with less blown apart squirrels than .17 HMR does.

My .17 HMR is a rifle that I intend to keep for my entire life, so I really do hope that its popularity increases and it drives ammo prices down.

I can hit a golfball sized target at 100 yards with it, and then do it again and again. I practice shooting symbols out of playing cards from 65 yards after I started making single hole groups.

If you don't own a .17 HMR, you won't regret buying one. I like it so much that I own a Taurus .17 HMR revolver, which I also like a lot.
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Old November 15, 2012, 05:14 PM   #11
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As dumbfounding as some of them are, such as the .45 GAP, I like the new "odd" calibers. They bespeak of innovation in a somewhat stagnate field.

And maybe it's just me, but some "odd" calibers are some of my favorites...

10mm, Super .38, 9x23 Winchester, 9mm IMI, etc. I think they're neat.
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Old November 16, 2012, 08:30 AM   #12
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For numbers, there are fewer licensed every year. Our numbers are diminishing. So who are they marketing these new rifles to anyway? The hunters who read these mags already own at least one hunting rifle.

In my opinion (anyone is allowed to disagree), the need for new and more powerful cartridges is a marketing hoax. Animals can still be taken cleanly with such old standbys such as:
- 30-30
- 300 Savage
- .308
- 30-06
- 270
- and many other cartridges including your favorite

Jack
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Old November 16, 2012, 03:31 PM   #13
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For numbers, there are fewer licensed every year. Our numbers are diminishing. So who are they marketing these new rifles to anyway? The hunters who read these mags already own at least one hunting rifle.
That's part of the problem.
Firearms manufacturers sell durable goods.
If people stop buying, they go out of business.
If they can't get you to buy another '06, then they have to come up with some way to get you to sell the '06 and buy the new .338 Super Throat Annihilator and Muscle Punisher.

Then, of course, there's a hand-off to the ammunition companies that prey on the people that snap up the "latest and greatest" rifle without checking the cost of ammunition, first.

.338 Lapua rifles being "chambered for five dollar bills" comes to mind.
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Old November 16, 2012, 10:12 PM   #14
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Anybody remember the .451 Datonics?.
It lives on in a way in .45 Super.

Heck, I'm surprised .40 S&W is still around. I thought that one was a passing fad for sure.
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Old November 17, 2012, 03:44 PM   #15
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In my opinion (anyone is allowed to disagree), the need for new and more powerful cartridges is a marketing hoax. Animals can still be taken cleanly with such old standbys
You know, I'll just bet that an awful lot of folks over the years said the same thing about short magnum rifle rounds, hollowpoints, magnum revolver rounds, smokeless powder, larger bullets, percussion caps, rifled bores, conical ball, longer barrels, steel barrels, iron barrels, longbows and atlatl

I'm still badly tempted to do my M95 rechamber in 50 Alaskan; so... ...yeah.

TCB
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Old November 17, 2012, 04:35 PM   #16
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the need for new and more powerful cartridges is a marketing hoax. Animals can still be taken cleanly with such old standbys such as:
I don't disagree with this statement, but if inventors hadn't kept trying new stuff we'd still be hunting with match locks, longbows or even spears. I can see ancient cavemen sitting around a campfire discussing merits of the speed of an arrow vs the greater mass of a spear. I'm sure the discussions were very much like TFL forums. I'm sure there were many who claimed that a real hunter would get close and use a spear instead of sniping them at long range with arrows.

Technology advancements come in small steps with more failures than success. That is true of any product. Just because a product fails to capture a large market share does not mean it is a bad idea. Sometimes it just takes time. The 30-30 was not an instant success, nor the 270. The 270 had been available for 25 years and was selling so poorly that Winchester seriously considered dropping the round. It only gained any success after O'Connor started writing about it. Many scoff at the WSM lineup, but they have only been available for 12 years. In those 12 years the 300 WSM in particular has been a much better seller than most others in the 1st 12 years of production.
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Old November 19, 2012, 04:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
300 ACC Blackout is a 7.62 x 39 for AR's. Super SHTF round, but not popular enough yet. I might get an upper for fun.


Actually the 300 ACC is based off the 300 Wisper and was designed to run subsonic with a supresser and heavy bullets. It does fairly well supersonic with lighter bullets as well but is in no way made to compete with the 7.62x39. The 6.8 SPC is more comparable to the 7.62 but doesn't have the feeding issues in an AR platform associated with the heavily tapered 7.62 cartridge.
You're both right for the most part; the .300 AAC Blackout is designed to run .30 caliber rounds in a 5.56 platform with all parts being interchangeable except for the barrel. You can either run it with subsonic ammo and a suppressor, or use supersonic loads to mimic the ballistics of the 7.62x39mm. The supersonic .300 Blackout and the 7.62x39mm are very similar ballistically, and both are different from the 6.8 SPC.
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Old November 20, 2012, 10:17 AM   #18
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The 17HM2 was a fun cartridge for me. I adapted a 10/22 for it so the cost was just another barrel and bolt. It was more accurate than the .22lr and exploded hedge apples much better. It was fun. The HMR was more fun, but not semi-auto.
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Old November 20, 2012, 06:41 PM   #19
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I can see ancient cavemen sitting around a campfire discussing merits of the speed of an arrow vs the greater mass of a spear.
Caveman with the spear probably kept on about how the big and heavy spear was in every way superior to the (probably plastic) light and fast arrow. And thus began the caliber wars.
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Old November 20, 2012, 09:48 PM   #20
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Cartridges come and go and are a lifeblood of new gun sales for the manufacturers.

I welcomed the WSM magnums as I don't prefer belted magnums for handloading. I have had belted mags. since the 50's.

The 7mm WSM is a current favorite of mine and I have one ready. However the 30-06 is just fine and thats what I use most for game shooting as that's what a favorite rifle is chambered for.

They even bring back cartridges that had died out.

It's all fun for us to talk about.
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Old November 21, 2012, 12:24 AM   #21
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Usually posts start as "Remember the ....cartridge?"
There are many things in past history, good or bad, that was a solution looking for a problem.
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Old November 21, 2012, 04:06 PM   #22
Newton24b
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ooooo so you took a .308 or 30-06, even a .330 savage and made the case .12 inches larger in diamter and .54 inches shorter. whooppeee, it does the same as those calibers with the same bullets..... soyou want me to buy a new 800 dollar rifle and a 20 round box of cartridges that will cost me 58.99 out the door?
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