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Old November 21, 2012, 10:06 AM   #51
cuba
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The Army manual, on page 19 indicates that the casing should have a cannelure indintation to privent bullet set back.

AMMUNITION FOR AUTOMATIC PISTOL CALIBER .45, MODEL OF
1911—BALL CARTRIDGE.
(Plate VI.)
The components of the ball cartridge consist of cartridge case,
primer, powder, and bullet.
CARTRIDGE CASE.
The cartridge case is cylindrical and is made of brass. It is provided
with a cannelure to prevent the bullet being forced down on
the powder.

Guess JMB thought about every detail to make the 1911 reliable and function as designed.



FA M1911 cartridge


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Old November 21, 2012, 10:42 AM   #52
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Of course, if you are in a "combat" situation where you have the time to single load your handgun to stay in the fight without getting killed, you have the time to knock/shake the empty cases out of the handgun if the extractor breaks off completely single loading it.
I'd think that it would be more of an escape/evasion situation than combat. It's like Basil Plumley said: "If I need a rifle, there's gonna be plenty of'em layin' around."

Quote:
The cartridge case is cylindrical and is made of brass. It is provided
with a cannelure to prevent the bullet being forced down on
the powder.
Yep. They just don't make'em like they used to.
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Old November 21, 2012, 12:40 PM   #53
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I'd think that it would be more of an escape/evasion situation than combat.
Even then, if you have the time to lock open a slide, take a individual round, drop it in the chamber, close the slide and fire a round, and that doesn't get you killed.

You probably will have the time to lock the slide open and shake/pry/push the expended case out too.



This is assuming that the extractor broke off completely and is no longer capable of extracting a round. Most external extractors will still at least partially extract a round, even when damaged.
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Old November 21, 2012, 12:56 PM   #54
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Even then, if you have the time to lock open a slide, take a individual round, drop it in the chamber, close the slide and fire a round, and that doesn't get you killed.
I'd say that if you're down to using a pistol, the situation is pretty desperate anyway, especially if you've also lost your only magazine...but if you can poke or shake an unextracted round out of one and reload it as fast as you can single-load one and fire...color me impressed.

And it would seem that...if you've lost your only magazine...a working extractor would be a plus. If you've come down to a pistol...and you're in a fight for your life...and you've lost your only magazine...and you've got a broken extractor...your situation is probably beyond all help, other than perhaps divine intervention.

But a few single-loadings won't be at all likely to break an extractor anyway, so the argument is really pretty pointless unless you just like to argue...which I'm starting to suspect.
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Old November 21, 2012, 01:23 PM   #55
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Quote:
I'd say that if you're down to using a pistol, the situation is pretty desperate anyway...but if you can poke or shake an unextracted round out of one and reload it as fast as you can single-load one and fire...color me impressed.

It would seem that...if you've lost your only magazine...a working extractor would be a plus.

And a few single-loadings won't be at all likely to break an extractor anyway, so the argument is really pretty pointless unless you just like to argue...which I'm starting to suspect.
I think you missed what I was saying but still came to the same conclusion.

If I am in a situation in which I need to use my handgun to defend my life. I am unlikely to have the time to single load it. If I do have the time to single load it, I am probably not in such dire need of it, and that I could take a little more time to manually extract the case, if the extractor actually broke during the process.

So adding single loading as a design requirement of a handgun is silly. Now if it is a "gimme" feature that just happens to be an effect of some other design feature that is actually useful, no problem.
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Old November 21, 2012, 01:52 PM   #56
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re:

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If I am in a situation in which I need to use my handgun to defend my life. I am unlikely to have the time to single load it.
Well, that wasn't really the point. That being that the extractors were designed to allow single-loading in the event of a lost or damaged magazine. All other times, the pistol is designed and intended to be loaded from the magazine.

In the event of being the operative term. It means just in case everything goes completely sideways. Down to a life and death struggle with a pistol and no magazine...assuming that you have loose rounds available to single load.

Sorta like we keep fire extinguishers in the kitchen in the event of a fire on the top of the stove.

Who was it that said:

"Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it."

Better to have the ability to single-load than not, even though you, as a civilian will probably never need to use that option.

As to how this discussion/debate came to include a broken extractor is a bit of a mystery.
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Old November 21, 2012, 02:05 PM   #57
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In the event of being the operative term. It means just in case everything goes completely sideways. Down to a life and death struggle with a pistol and no magazine...assuming that you have loose rounds available to single load.
Educate me about a scenario in which a persons life could be saved by the ability to open a slide, drop a round in, close slide, aim and fire, where having to shake/knock/pry a fired case out wouldn't still be effective. (Completely ignoring your point about having loose rounds but no magazine)

If my life is on the line, soldier or not, to the point that I need a handgun to defend myself, I don't think that being able to drop a multiple single rounds into the gun without having the extractor damaged is going to save me.

But maybe you have some experience/knowledge that would educate me.

I figure it is a hold over from the WWI days where the load one/shoot one with the magazine in reserve nonsense was prevalent. I think I remember actually reading about several of those old designs that had that "feature".
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Old November 21, 2012, 02:18 PM   #58
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This is probably obvious to most readers here, but I am going to say it anyway. Maybe it will help someone.

What we need is a strategy for loading the chamber, but not reloading the same cartridge into the chamber over and over again. Here is how I do it.

I buy expensive self defense ammo in a box of 50. My current preferred ammo is Federal HST. I load my two Glock 19 mags with 15 rounds each. I insert one of the mags and rack the slide. I then remove the magazine (which now has 14 rounds), and top it off with one more cartridge. I then re-insert the magazine.

The box of expensive ammo has 19 rounds remaining, and 31 empty slots. At some point, I am going to want to unload the weapon (for instance, if I want to shoot cheap FMJ at the range). The round in the chamber has already been chambered once. If it gets chambered a second time, I want that cartridge fired. So I place that cartridge back in the box, in one of the 31 empty slots. With a sharpie marker I note which end of the box is for "cycled once" cartridges, and which end is "new" cartridges. When I reload the weapon with HSTs, I grab a replacement cartridge from the "new" side.

After all the 19 spare rounds have been cycled once, it is time to shoot them. Next trip to the range they all get shot, and it is time to buy a new box of HSTs.
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Old November 21, 2012, 04:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
The box of expensive ammo has 19 rounds remaining, and 31 empty slots. At some point, I am going to want to unload the weapon (for instance, if I want to shoot cheap FMJ at the range). The round in the chamber has already been chambered once. If it gets chambered a second time, I want that cartridge fired. So I place that cartridge back in the box, in one of the 31 empty slots. With a sharpie marker I note which end of the box is for "cycled once" cartridges, and which end is "new" cartridges. When I reload the weapon with HSTs, I grab a replacement cartridge from the "new" side.
That is a good idea.

There was another issue that surfaced last year with rounds that had been repeatedly cycled. The primer fell apart and would no longer function, happened to an LEO.

http://boloreport.com/officer-safety...ailure-to-fire
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Old November 21, 2012, 05:32 PM   #60
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re:

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Educate me about a scenario in which a persons life could be saved by the ability to open a slide, drop a round in, close slide, aim and fire, where having to shake/knock/pry a fired case out wouldn't still be effective. (Completely ignoring your point about having loose rounds but no magazine)


If my life is on the line, soldier or not, to the point that I need a handgun to defend myself, I don't think that being able to drop a multiple single rounds into the gun without having the extractor damaged is going to save me.
The longer this goes on, the more confusing it gets.

This is an expedient means of loading and firing the gun in and emergency.
Nothing more. It doesn't guarantee anything.

If you lost your magazine and still had ammunition...would you just shrug and say "Oh, well. I guess I'm dead because it'll take too much time to single-load a round and give it the old college try. May as well throw the gun away and wait for it."

Or would you at least try? On the small chance that one round would give you a chance...no matter how small...would you load that round and fire?
Or two rounds?

Or would you just give up?

One might wonder how many soldiers and lone frontiersmen managed to get anything accomplished with Sharps and Trapdoor Springfield rifles. Maybe they fired one round and ran, because...you know...it took so long to open the breech and load the things.
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Old November 21, 2012, 08:38 PM   #61
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Quote:
The longer this goes on, the more confusing it gets.

This is an expedient means of loading and firing the gun in and emergency.
Nothing more. It doesn't guarantee anything.

If you lost your magazine and still had ammunition...would you just shrug and say "Oh, well. I guess I'm dead because it'll take too much time to single-load a round and give it the old college try. May as well throw the gun away and wait for it."

Or would you at least try? On the small chance that one round would give you a chance...no matter how small...would you load that round and fire?
Or two rounds?
You are apparently missing the point of my comment completely.

A handgun is a last ditch close defense weapon when used in it's normal function.

What defensive scenario do you have in your mind in which you could draw a handgun, lock it open, drop a loose round in, close the action, aim and fire from a civilian or military standpoint that would benefit going to the effort and expense to design a "feature" that would allow someone to do this without the possibility of damaging the extractor? (It most likely could be done at least 1 time with ANY extractor, probably multiple times before something breaks)

I can't think of one relating to "combat" or personal defense. Sure you could use it for a single shot that was in the chamber, but it isn't really even practical to conceive of trying to reload single rounds during a self defense scenario to the point of trying to design in an extractor that would allow this to be done repeatedly without damaging the extractor.

There are other times that I am sure it might be of a benefit to be able to load a single round even without a magazine that aren't "combat" related.

Which goes back to my original comment:

Quote:
Of course, if you are in a "combat" situation where you have the time to single load your handgun to stay in the fight without getting killed, you have the time to knock/shake the empty cases out of the handgun if the extractor breaks off completely single loading it.
And this comment:

Quote:
Even then, if you have the time to lock open a slide, take a individual round, drop it in the chamber, close the slide and fire a round, and that doesn't get you killed.

You probably will have the time to lock the slide open and shake/pry/push the expended case out too.
And this comment:

Quote:
If I am in a situation in which I need to use my handgun to defend my life. I am unlikely to have the time to single load it. If I do have the time to single load it, I am probably not in such dire need of it, and that I could take a little more time to manually extract the case, if the extractor actually broke during the process.
And this comment:

Quote:
If my life is on the line, soldier or not, to the point that I need a handgun to defend myself, I don't think that being able to drop a multiple single rounds into the gun without having the extractor damaged is going to save me.
If a person is in a defensive situation that allows a person to single load, they probably have time knock out them empties if the extractor were to break.

Maybe I am missing something.

If it were your gun, would you spend extra money for the design resources and machining processes to have this feature? If it isn't a happy accident and was intentionally added, it requires resources.
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Old November 21, 2012, 08:47 PM   #62
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Crow Hunter, what evidence have you that dropping the slide on a chambered round will break the extractor on a ordanance spec 1911 ?

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Old November 21, 2012, 09:06 PM   #63
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Quote:
Crow Hunter, what evidence have you that dropping the slide on a chambered round will break the extractor on a ordanance spec 1911 ?
Personally, none.

I have never done that on any pistol that I own so I have never tested it. (I don't own anymore 1911's anyway.)

I do know that it shouldn't be done on Glock extractors and I extrapolated that to all external extractors based on how they work.

Until it was brought up in this thread, I was not even aware that the Beretta was designed with this in mind. (Still trying to get my head around that design requirement)

If I were going to hazard a guess, since the gun was designed in the early 20th century (prior to 1911 anyway) and load one/fire one was pretty much a common design feature until it was proven useless in WWI, it was probably designed with that in mind. So I would say if made to the original JMB spec, it would probably be fine.

I think another member mentioned earlier that the 1911 usually goes "out of tune" because the extractor bends rather than chips/breaks.

I haven't owned a 1911 in 7 or 8 years and mine was just a SA Loaded model. Probably not mil-spec.

I defer to those with more 1911 experience for that.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:07 PM   #64
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Crow Hunter, what evidence have you that dropping the slide on a chambered round will break the extractor on a ordanance spec 1911 ?
Nobody is saying it WILL break the extractor. What's being said is that it places additional stress on the extractor, and if done repeatedly will likely cause some sort of damage eventually, especially in guns not specifically designed to tolerate it.

The damage might be in the form of chipping, breaking or bending.

Loading a semi-auto by dropping the slide on a chambered round is not recommended practice unless the manufacturer specifically states it is acceptable. Even then, it's still stressing the extractor in ways it isn't stressed during normal shooting/cycling.
Quote:
What defensive scenario do you have in your mind in which you could draw a handgun, lock it open, drop a loose round in, close the action, aim and fire from a civilian or military standpoint that would benefit going to the effort and expense to design a "feature" that would allow someone to do this without the possibility of damaging the extractor?
Ruger states, in the owner's manual, that the P95 (and P89/P85--and possibly others of the P-Series pistols, I don't have information for them) can be used as single shot handgun by direct chamber loading if: "...the magazine is missing or for training purposes (where it is desirable that only one cartridge be loaded and fired at a time for safety)..."

Beretta states that direct chamber loading capability is provide to make "...it possible to fire the pistol single shot with the ease of operation should the magazine be damaged."

I don't know why other manufacturers provide such a capability, but Beretta and Ruger seem to indicate that the primary reason for doing so is a damaged or missing magazine. Basically in a situation where you have no other option.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
for training purposes (where it is desirable that only one cartridge be loaded and fired at a time for safety)..."
Okay.

I understand that.

Non-emergency convenience/safety use that doesn't potentially damage the gun.

I can see how that might be useful in certain situations.
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Old November 21, 2012, 11:33 PM   #66
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re:

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You are apparently missing the point of my comment completely.
Apparently I've missed something, for sure.

Nowhere did I suggest that you should jettison the magazine and start single-loading the gun if you're in a fight. Never. Go and look.

You seem to be hung up on that point for some reason.

Nor did I ever claim that it was a good thing to do to the extractor. It can damage it if done repeatedly.

I mentioned that the extractor is designed to allow single-loading in the event of a lost or damaged magazine and being able to fire the gun in such an emergency situation would be a good thing, because...it just might save your life.

Or, it might not. There ain't any guarantees.

If it does, you can replace the extractor if it makes you feel better. If it doesn't, you probably won't care if your extractor was damaged.
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Old November 22, 2012, 09:04 AM   #67
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Let me explain my position and maybe you will understand where I am coming from.

I am a Design Engineer. Specifically a Value Engineer. What I do is look for things that improve the cost or performance of product and add value or remove extraneous things that are not a net value add.

My original point was that since the design intent of a handgun is that of emergency close range defensive fire AND if you lose your magazine AND you still have a pocket full of loose rounds AND if you get into a "gun fight" in which you have the time to manually load it without getting killed. You likely have the time to manually unload the chamber as well, should the extractor actually break during the process. Which it probably won't do for 2 or 3 rounds at least and the likelihood of getting into a protracted gun fight with multiple assailants single loading rounds is really not very likely at all.

A "feature" requires that someone design it, test it, manufacture it, then continually test it at some frequency to make sure that it is working.

All of this will consume resources. That could be saved as profit for the manufacturer, cost savings to the customer or could be applied to other "features" that would have more value to the manufacturer or the end user.

If it is a happy accident that just happens because of the way the gun was designed for other very important design features, it is a "gimme" but really adds no value to the end product because of it's extremely low likelihood of ever being useful.

Hopefully you see where I am coming from now.

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Old November 22, 2012, 09:45 AM   #68
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Yeh yeh, I understand all that. You're grasping at straws now.

First...assuming a machined steel extractor, it ain't likely gonna break for dozens, if not hundreds of single-loadings. They're just not that fragile.

Second...assuming that the extractor is correctly made to spec...there's no need to let the slide slam. Riding it forward and pressing it with one thumb will snap it over the rim just fine.

Third, the nose of the extractor is necessarily cut on an angle anyway in order to clear the angled forward portion of the extractor groove. Machining it to an angle that's also conducive to single-loading is a non-issue, cost wise. The design has been in place from the git-go. No engineering man-hours necessary. Just follow the blueprints.

Fourth...you're assuming that all emergency situations will entail an OK Corral type firefight. In that case, if you find yourself sans a working magazine, you're probably well and truly screwed unless you can outrun a bullet.

Fifth...speaking directly of the 1911...the pistol was purposely designed to be completely disassembled and reassembled without any tools other than its own parts. This is a feature that you, as a civilian, will likely never need. However...if you're out in the wild country, and you happen to drop the pistol into mud...or if it gets drenched in a stream...the ability to do that would surely be a plus. If nothing else, it would be comforting. Again...assuming that the pistol is made to original spec, and doesn't have any various add-on doo dads...it requires no engineering man-hours. It's already there, and it doesn't compromise the function of the gun in any way, and...like the man said...it ain't eatin' anything."

Finally...All self-loading smallarms that have been designed for military intent incorporate this single-loading feature for the express reason of maintaining a firing weapon in the event of a lost or damaged magazine. This includes the 1911...the High power...the Luger...The P-38...the Glock...and all rifles, including the controlled-feed bolt-actions.

This was done because it's better to have a weapon that can be fired once every 10 seconds than a weapon that can't be fired at all.

Of course, as an engineer, you should recognize and understand this...or at least I'd think that you would.
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Old November 22, 2012, 11:04 AM   #69
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I've replaced several Lee Enfield rifle extractors or the V spring for them over the years. Some had the pivot pin hole worn into an oval.

Originally the Enfields had a magazine cut off and rounds were single loaded using the cut off plate as a tray.
By WW1 regulations for musketry prohibited the use of the cut off for single loading, all rounds had to be fed from the magazine. I guess they had finally gotten tired of replacing extractors and/or springs.

My guess is that the U S Army had not yet had a serious problem in danged extractors by 1914, but that probably changed as more 1911 pistols were issued, and wartime pressures made getting replacement parts to the front more chancy.

Most blowback pistols and SMGs can operate just fine without an extractor, some were even designed without extractors, the gas pressure pushing the case back along with the bolt till it hit the ejector blade.
Recoil operated pistols can sometimes operate the same way, if theres enough residual pressure in the case after the slide unlocks from the barrel and pressure has dropped enough that the case walls no longer grip the chamber.

Quote:
Second...assuming that the extractor is correctly made to spec...there's no need to let the slide slam. Riding it forward and pressing it with one thumb will snap it over the rim just fine.
On the very rare occasions that I've single loaded, thats how I do it. No need to let the slide slam home unless the pistol is not quite broken in yet.
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Old November 22, 2012, 11:29 AM   #70
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Quote:
My guess is that the U S Army had not yet had a serious problem in danged extractors by 1914, but that probably changed as more 1911 pistols were issued, and wartime pressures made getting replacement parts to the front more chancy.
My guess is similar.

Again, does anybody have any access to AMU thoughts on this?
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Old November 22, 2012, 12:09 PM   #71
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Again, does anybody have any access to AMU thoughts on this?
AMU protocol is to load every round from the magazine. "Field Expedient" means just that. Doing something due to unusual circumstances when the need to fire overrides any concern with the equipment or regulations.

One might wonder how many pistols were topped off with the 8th round in that very fashion and the hammer lowered in direct violation of regulations. Given the 1911 pistol's long history in two major wars and a half-dozen minor actions, I'd be willing to bet that there were a lot of'em.

Like the deputy in Unforgiven quipped:

"I don't wanna get killed for lack of shootin' back."

And again...the extractor isn't so fragile that one or two forced rim engagements will hurt one at all, and even if it does...if it keeps a man off the KIA list...who really cares?
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Old November 22, 2012, 01:01 PM   #72
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I don't believe that any part of JMB 1911's design was coincidence, but deliberate and calculated, he was commissioned by the Army to design a automatic pistol for their specific purpose and demand, and by all evidence, the ability to drop the slide on a chambered round was one of those criteria (as instructed by the 1914 manual) and by design its self, the 1911 extractor nose would not have a radius or made of spring steel and the channel would not be as wide as is, its almost like saying don't load your pickup truck because the weight might break the axles, yeah if you never load it your axles will last forever, but the engineers designed the rear end with spring to address the added stress to the axles, it is a calculated design, I'm also pretty sure that if the Army would have found a problem with loading the chamber and dropping the slide that there would be some sort of addendum documentation as such, being such a crucial failure to their purpose of operation and design.

In conclusion to the OP question whether it is wise to load a round directly into the chamber and release the slide, I believe you have to understand the design of the specific weapon in question, some might be designed with single loading capability and some might not, as far as the 1911 it is self evident that it was design to allow the slide to be dropped over a loaded round, as far as the longevity of the extractor in so doing who has documented any failures associated with this capability, I also believe it is foolish as an end user to assume that you know more about a certain design then the engineers that designed it, specially when it comes to a 100+ year pistol.

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Old November 22, 2012, 05:47 PM   #73
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JMB

Quote:
I don't believe that any part of JMB 1911's design was coincidence, but deliberate and calculated,
Exactly so. Not only was nothing coincidental, but he had a penchant for designing one part to perform two or more functions. (The slidestop has five.)

Those things, plus his habit of redundancy shows why Browning's designs were so successful...and why they're still being heavily borrowed from and copied to this day.
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Old November 22, 2012, 09:42 PM   #74
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1911 Tuner, who is arguing that once or twice, or as a necessary combat expedient, will (automatically or unacceptably) damage the pistol?

Most of us are arguing that repeated practice is likely, at the least, to affect extractor tension, or possibly chip or break the claw.

What does that have to do with a do or die combat expedient?

The OP was asking about doing this as a regular practice, for chambering previously loaded rounds without them impacting a feed ramp and encountering setback. Are you saying that's a good practice? Or are you only defending loading by hand when absolutely necessary for survival?
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Old November 22, 2012, 11:13 PM   #75
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re:

Quote:
1911 Tuner, who is arguing that once or twice, or as a necessary combat expedient, will (automatically or unacceptably) damage the pistol?
Crow Hunter seems to be under that impression.

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Most of us are arguing that repeated practice is likely, at the least, to affect extractor tension, or possibly chip or break the claw.
Which was all I ever said. Then the argument started.

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The OP was asking about doing this as a regular practice, for chambering previously loaded rounds without them impacting a feed ramp and encountering setback. Are you saying that's a good practice? Or are you only defending loading by hand when absolutely necessary for survival?
I've mentioned two or three times that the pistol was meant to feed from the magazine, and that single-loading...while an acceptable expedient method for keeping the gun serviceable in the event of a lost magazine...isn't good for the extractor.

And...If the extractor is made to spec...with the correct angle on the nose...chipping isn't a concern.

And...

If all else is to spec, and the extractor has the correct amount of deflection...and the extractor is made of good stuff...neither is a few single loadings likely to have an adverse effect on the tension.

The extractor isn't that fragile. It's essentially a leaf spring that happens to have a claw on the end.
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Last edited by 1911Tuner; November 22, 2012 at 11:20 PM.
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