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Old October 22, 2012, 08:36 AM   #1
StainlessSteel215
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Unbelievable...gun permit applicant's info publicly posted on the web

This is one of the most rotten violations of rights Ive ever seen. It goes beyond 2A...this was a blatant attack on a high profile person who's permit application, full name, address, and REASON for applying for a carry permit were posted on a public website. How does this seriously happen with today's regulations? I hope he decides to sue the pants off the Philadelphia L&I dept officials who released his info. Apparently this is all a giant step towards government transparency at OUR expense as gun owners.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...mpid=124488469
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Old October 22, 2012, 08:47 AM   #2
mete
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There was a fairly recent post here how the problem was dealt with in one instance .A Newspaper published all the info about permit owners , name address ,etc
Permit owners searched found and published everything they could find about the editor of the paper !! Revenge is sweet !! The editor was very upset !
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Old October 22, 2012, 08:48 AM   #3
Rifleman1776
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It would depend on how the individual states freedom of information acts are written. I believe, in Arkansas, the names of permit holders are public record.
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Old October 22, 2012, 08:54 AM   #4
StainlessSteel215
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Did either of you honestly know that your permit information is made public in some states? I sure didnt. I just know that my gun permit which was filed by the district court and state police along with every new gun purchase/serial # here in PA is recorded in my private records.

I'm shocked at this story....its in instance of local gov reaching beyond state gov.
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Old October 22, 2012, 09:10 AM   #5
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Philadelphia is an interesting case, in that city's rights supercede states rights.
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Old October 22, 2012, 11:01 AM   #6
sigcurious
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It's not all that surprising given the amount of information that becomes public record when the government is involved. Granted the information usually isn't published by the record holders(ie the government).

Quote:
this was a blatant attack on a high profile person
I disagree, he wasn't singled out, all of the people who appealed were on the list/map. Unless you have information that the article doesn't contain, what makes him high profile or unique?

What does make this interesting, is the process in which the information(and amount of the information) was made public record. That is indeed questionable, that they may have been uninformed that they were making the the information a part of public record by appealing. Particularly since PA state law intends for the information to be private.
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Old October 22, 2012, 12:18 PM   #7
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For those interested in the confidentiality statute:
Quote:
6111 (i) Confidentiality.-- All information provided by the potential purchaser, transferee or applicant, including, but not limited to, the potential purchaser, transferee or applicant's name or identity, furnished by a potential purchaser or transferee under this section or any applicant for a license to carry a firearm as provided by section 6109 shall be confidential and not subject to public disclosure. In addition to any other sanction or penalty imposed by this chapter, any person, licensed dealer, State or local governmental agency or department that violates this subsection shall be liable in civil damages in the amount of $1,000 per occurrence or three times the actual damages incurred as a result of the violation, whichever is greater, as well as reasonable attorney fees.
I say $1,000 is not much of a penalty for a city with Philly's budget. How would you go about proving actual (and potential future) damages?
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Old October 22, 2012, 12:51 PM   #8
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Both Indiana and Illinois have both made changes to their state laws due to similar situations over the past few years. In Indiana, it was a group of newspapers publishing names and addresses of LTCH (License to Carry a Handgun) holders and in Illinois it was papers publishing names and addresses of FOID (Firearm Owner Identification) holders. In both cases, I believe that such information was removed from public record over the newspapers' cries about their 1st Amendment rights.
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Old October 22, 2012, 06:17 PM   #9
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strafer Gott
Philadelphia is an interesting case, in that city's rights supercede states rights.
This is a common misconception, but it is wrong. Pennsylvania has a state preemption statute, and Philadelphia is NOT exempt from it. They like to think they are ... but they aren't.

The misconception most likely arises out of a peculiarity in state law: Pennsylvania is an UNLICENSED open carry state, requiring a permit (which PA calls a "License To Carry Firearm," commonly abbreviated to LTCF) only for concealed carry. Except in "cities of the first class," which is defined in the statute as cities having a population exceeding one million people. Pittsburgh is only around 300,000, so the law applies only to Philadelphia ... but it does not name Philadelphia. In cities of the first class, one must have a LTCF in order to carry concealed or open.

So that in no way allows Philadelphia to "supersede" state's rights. It is a state law, not a Philadelphia law. And that is (AFAIK) the only area of firearms law wherein Philadelphia differs from the rest of the state.
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Old October 22, 2012, 08:03 PM   #10
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It appears the minimum penalty is $1,000 per disclosure. With at least several hundred names (and addresses) disclosed, the minimum penalty would be several hundred thousand dollars, plus attorneys' fees. I suspect some folks at Philly's Dept. of L & I are going to learn a well-deserved tough lesson about the law and the consequences of ignoring it (at least I hope so).
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Old October 23, 2012, 08:22 AM   #11
StainlessSteel215
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Amen.
And to reiterate what someone posted above, Philadelphia city officials think they are above the state laws in many cases. Clearly, they are not.
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Old October 23, 2012, 03:32 PM   #12
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I wonder if they publish court activities?

I wonder if they publish sex offenders names and addresses??
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Old October 24, 2012, 10:55 AM   #13
StainlessSteel215
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Haaa...well we CERTAINLY dont want that. PA remains a pretty solid 2A state with a large NRA presence so lets just hope it stays that way.

What exactly are the current laws to gun ownership in NJ? All I know is I cannot carry there!
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:52 AM   #14
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It's not really all that unbelievable - happens from time to time when a paper or other media outlet wants to stir up the public.

The standard response is to publish the info of the author(s) of the article or database. You get bonus points for getting their FB, Twitter, and MySpace profile info and double bonus points for getting them to "friend" you so you can message them to explain the error of their ways
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Old November 7, 2012, 04:03 AM   #15
jersey_emt
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If you think that's crazy, take a look at the procedures for obtaining a CCW permit in the state of Delaware.

Quote:
INSTRUCTIONS
New Applications For A License To Carry A Concealed Deadly Weapon (Delaware Residents Only)


In order for your application for a license to carry a concealed deadly weapon to be processed, the following steps must be completed:
  1. Arrange with a newspaper of general circulation in your County to have your application published once, at least (10) days before the filing of your application with the Court. Obtain an affidavit from the newspaper company stating that this requirement has been met, and attach it to your application.

    PLEASE NOTE: Newspaper selection must have a circulation of at least 35% of the population in your zip code. Be sure to use your whole name - no initials - and your home address.
That's right. You need to publicly declare, via newspaper advertisement or announcement, your intentions to obtain your carry permit to your entire town or region, including your full name and address.

Criminals must love this -- they can just pick up a newspaper and see who owns firearms in their area, and the address where these firearms are kept.
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Old November 7, 2012, 07:21 PM   #16
Mr. James
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Quote:
If you think that's crazy, take a look at the procedures for obtaining a CCW permit in the state of Delaware.
Dear Lord! That's simply reprehensible! If you lived in a large metropolitan area, that might price a permit right out of your pocketbook. And why would an employee of, say, a gun-hating newspaper agree to prepare and notarize an affidavit? If I had to get "an affidavit from the newspaper company" from the Washington Post Co. (I live in metro-DC), I'd be toast.

Talk about infringement. Do they have poll taxes, too? Do you have to buy a government permit to publish a broadsheet or newsletter?
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:02 PM   #17
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I couldn't care less. You should ALWAYS be prepared. Bring em on.
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Old November 8, 2012, 09:32 AM   #18
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Yeah, there is a newspaper in Raleigh or Charlotte, NC (I can't remember) who have set up a search engine on their website for people to see the addresses of all CC permit holders in their neigborhoods. I am hoping the strong conservatrive legislature will do something about it. Unbelievable, isn't it, how liberals are so arrogant, so sure they are right even when the law and will of the people are clearly opposed to their views? Taking it on themselves to actively persecute law abiding citizens who are doing something they object to. Thankfully, their database seems only to be populated for their immediate area and doesn't cover where I live.
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Old November 9, 2012, 10:54 AM   #19
StainlessSteel215
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*UPDATE*

The class action lawsuit against Philly Licenses & Inspection dept. seems to be forming as we speak. It all seems to boil down to a fine print confidentiality disclaimer that every applicant waived when they agreed to appeal a revoked permit & file a claim. Ridiculous

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...Web_snafu.html
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Old November 9, 2012, 04:27 PM   #20
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The other side of the coin...

We're looking at this as "telling criminals" where to get guns, but look at the other side for a moment. Its also telling the criminals where NOT to go, because they could get shot! NON permit holders ought to be even more upset, because of this list!

If I lived in a neighborhood and the list was published showing 3 permit holders on my block (and I wasn't one of them) that's telling the crimiinals its safe to rob me, because I'm NOT armed!!!!

Doesn't this put me and my family in more danger than that of the permit holder????? After all, the gun owners might just be willing and able to defend themselves....

Point that out to the non-gun owners when they don't think its a big deal.....

note: the above comments are intended as sarcasm, but there is a great deal of truth involved as well.
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Old November 10, 2012, 07:22 AM   #21
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wow this is unbelievable. the delaware one is a huge eye-opener here. Its like you are getting pardoned or something...just wow
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Old November 10, 2012, 07:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Criminals must love this -- they can just pick up a newspaper and see who owns firearms in their area, and the address where these firearms are kept.
So what you are saying is that by being a known gun owner and defensive gun carrier isn't sufficient to dissuade the bad guys.
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Old November 10, 2012, 08:06 AM   #23
mayosligo
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Regardless of what side you come down this is a breech privacy and one has to wonder what the point of this was.
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Old November 10, 2012, 08:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
Quote:
jersey_emt wrote: Criminals must love this -- they can just pick up a newspaper and see who owns firearms in their area, and the address where these firearms are kept.
Double Naught Spy wrote: So what you are saying is that by being a known gun owner and defensive gun carrier isn't sufficient to dissuade the bad guys.
uhhh, no....I think what he is saying is that criminals such as career burglars will go to the address, sit on the house until no one is there and then rob the house of the guns likely to sell on the street black market. That was my first thought anyway.
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Old November 10, 2012, 09:02 AM   #25
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Welcome to the Internet....

There are few 'things' that can't be uncovered on-line, (usually) save some legitimately classified information. Given a name or address, it is pretty easy to 'spider back' and obtain credit reports, criminal records, SSN's, and other sensitive or privileged information about most anyone, including public officials, and most anyone with an online presence. It would not surprise me to see the tables turned by those affected, showing how much about the Philly mayor and spokesman is available, which may ultimately change the city's processes and procedures. Wouldn't be the first time.

Welcome to the Internet.
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