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Old November 16, 2012, 09:56 PM   #1
douggamm
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Hydrostatic shock@ 100 yrds

curious... Anyone have information on hydrostatic shock from a .308 projectile around 2300+\- fps at 100 yrds. I've gotten different results for descriptions thus far. Both pro and con. Specifics would be 168gr Sierra MK hpbt with 36 gr PC of imr4895.
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Old November 16, 2012, 10:22 PM   #2
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thinkin I might buy a cheap pork roast and make a block of ballistics gel...shoot both on video... place a camera and catch video to see what happens. Wish I could post results... It will happen because I'm just that curious. Have a guy hunting with the rnds I make for my rem 700/.308. Hope to show ya.
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Old November 16, 2012, 10:27 PM   #3
alex0535
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Why does this matter?

A 168gr projectile moving at 2300+ fps should kill just about anything you shoot at.

That being said if I wanted to produce a lot of shock in a target, and generally violent internal wounding my bullet of choice would be a Hornady 150gr .308 SST. It will either not leave an exit wound or it will be a large dramatic exit wound.

If that bullet can can go into a target and go from 2300fps to stationary before reaching the other side, All of the energy that it carried is transferred to the target.
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Old November 16, 2012, 11:26 PM   #4
Art Eatman
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First off, it's a MatchKing and not a hunting bullet, so hydrostatic shock won't be important on paper.

And we do know that a .30-30 with a 170-grain bullet at 2,200 or 2,300 ft/sec has killed many a deer. Whether or not that's shocking, I dunno.
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Old November 17, 2012, 09:27 AM   #5
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Okay. Like I say, I was just curious. My assumption was that the impact of anything that size traveling at that rate would be like being hit by a Volkswagon @ 35mph. I'm also aware that Sierra MK's are for punching paper and not necessarily hunting. I will work up some hunting rounds for that purpose and make absolutely sure the deer falls in place or nearly. Thanx for the replies.
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Old November 17, 2012, 11:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Why does this matter?
My thoughts exactly.

I'd rather take that pork roast, throw in some 'tater's and carrots and have lunch.

Want to see what hydrostatic shock is, send me the roast and I'll send you some 204 Ruger bullets you can shoot at a milk jug full of water.
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:35 PM   #7
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FWIW I've shot 165 Gr Sierra Game King hunting bullets @ 2650 measured FPS into a stack of those 5-liter wine boxes refilled with water at 100yds. The boxes were broadside on & taped together tightly. The effects were to say the least spectacular.

The first 2 boxes were utterly destroyed, the spray shot out over about a 12' circle & the push-fit plugs were shot 15~25 feet into the air.

The next 3 were ripped to shreds & when examined later had both internal bladders shredded & split. The plugs were thrown several feet as the water exploded.

The effects after that dropped off sharply with the majority of the bullet stopping in a "lump" in the 9th box. There were some minor recovered fragments of jacket & lead in the 7th, & 8th boxes.

I know water isn't a real good substitute for flesh & bone, but I'd bet any creature struck by something that did that would drop like the end of the world.
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:46 PM   #8
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My assumption was that the impact of anything that size traveling at that rate would be like being hit by a Volkswagon @ 35mph.
You've been watching too much TV, or playing too many video games.

No bullet will have that sort of impact on anything. No bullet that can be fired from your shoulder will knock anything down like a linebacker (or Volkswagon), or it would knock you down when you fired it. The laws of physics are pretty strict.
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Old November 17, 2012, 05:07 PM   #9
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Okay. Like I say, I was just curious. My assumption was that the impact of anything that size traveling at that rate would be like being hit by a Volkswagon @ 35mph. I'm also aware that Sierra MK's are for punching paper and not necessarily hunting. I will work up some hunting rounds for that purpose and make absolutely sure the deer falls in place or nearly. Thanx for the replies.
If you plan on using it for a hunting load you should reconsider.

It is exclusively a traget round and it does not act the way a hunting round does. It will not penetrate and expand correctly in an animal. It will explode leaving an ugly surface would and is not what a sportsman would or should use for killing game.

Sierra specifically says not to use it for that purpose.

Any spitizer or true hunting hollow point would be the correct bullet to use.
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Old November 17, 2012, 05:22 PM   #10
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Larger animals such as elk or moose sometimes seem to be immuned to hydrostatic shock. Tissue damage is what usually kills. Otherwise an arrow with a broadhead wouldn't do much.
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Old November 17, 2012, 05:51 PM   #11
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What kills is cessation of brain activity. That can happen two ways. The most obvious way is destruction of brain and spinal cord by a direct hit. If the brain is destroyed, death is immediate. If the spine is destroyed, everything "downstream" of the hit will stop working. If what's downstream includes the heart and lungs (like a neck shot) death will be quick. They will stop working and the brain will starve for oxygen. If the hit is farther back, a finishing shot will likely be needed.

If the heart lungs are destroyed, blood pressure goes to zero, and the brain starves for oxygen in a few seconds. During those seconds, an animal as fast as a deer can travel a long way. Sometimes it does; sometimes it doesn't. But it is not "shock" that kills anything.

Sometimes, depending on the state of the animal and the specifics of the particular shot placement, the animal may drop at the shot. It seems to me that the level of hydrodynamic shock delivered does have some correlation to whether or not this happens, but I don't think it is clearly understood what exactly is the cause, or what causes failures to drop the animal instantly. There are theories, of course, but I'm not going to try to describe or defend any.

I do want to make it clear, however, that, although hydrodynamic shock is part of the effects a bullet produces, it is not a wise idea to think about it as a primary part of what kills an animal. What kills is disruption of brain function. Until that happens, the animal will be alive. Destroying the heart and lungs works so well because it will always stop the brain in a few seconds, and sometimes it will even include the sudden DRT bang/flop. But it is more important to think about how to disrupt blood flow to the brain when you are shooting an animal than it is to hope you have a certain level of kinetic energy.
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Old November 17, 2012, 06:14 PM   #12
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The most dramatic...

DRT bang/flop I ever saw was when I hit a 120 pound 8 pointer "in the armpit", broadside, with a 130 grain Winchester Ballistic Silvertip from 75 yards from a 270 WSM.

Factory spec says MV is 3250 fps, so at 75 yards it was probably going ONLY about 3,100 fps or so at impact.

The buck was standing still, exactly broadside (the long axis of his body was at a 90 degree angle to my gun-target line), but when the trigger broke, the long axis of his body IMMEDIATELY went parallel to the line of fire!

It happened so fast that I didn't know what happened, at first. I lost the target image in my scope due to the recoil, and when I recovered, the buck had disappeared, it seemed.

Then I saw some small movements at ground level. Turned out it was his rear feet twitching, a few times, then total stillness. "Cessation of brain activity" for sure!

Hydro static shock? I doubt it - more like getting hit by a Volkswagen at 100 mph!
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Old November 17, 2012, 07:06 PM   #13
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I will work up some hunting rounds for that purpose and make absolutely sure the deer falls in place or nearly.
I'd worry more about placing the shoot exactly where it needs to go and less about a magic bullet. If you put a good heart lung shot on a deer, they won't go far even using something cheap like Remington Core Lokts.
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Old November 17, 2012, 07:45 PM   #14
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Larger animals such as elk or moose sometimes seem to be immuned to hydrostatic shock. Tissue damage is what usually kills. Otherwise an arrow with a broadhead wouldn't do much.
As noted, its not tissue damage (and certainly not hydrostatic shock) but very specific damage to the nevrous system or heart and or lungs.

We shot a moose one time that literally bled out over time, but made around 3/4 mile while doing so. It still managed a final lunge at the end at us. Go figure. The butchering was bloodless. We failed to execute a good shot that did the massive quick bleed-out you strive for (I never went for a heat shot though my brother did once and dropped it on the spot).

Saskhunter put it exactly right.

What happens if you hit certain spots and get spastic results is not hydro shock. I never saw that happen and my closest was a small caribous at 60 yards with a 7mm Rem Mag. All I shot continued for a bit and they were all massive lung and or heart damage.
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Old November 18, 2012, 11:04 AM   #15
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Hydro shock reply

Okay. I will still work up some hunting rnds and leave the idea that hydro shock has anything to do with the death of the animal. I figure the Sierra Game Kings should be just fine. The rifle is a tack driver @ 100 yrds now that I found the proper load with your help. I will concentrate on the shot placement instead of anything else. To stop brain function= death *period*.
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Old November 18, 2012, 11:39 AM   #16
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You don't have to totally disregard hydrostatic shock, you just have to not count on it. It's unpredictable.

Hydrostatic shock is a byproduct of bullet speed. The faster is's going, the more shock it will cause, which is one reason I personally prefer light, fast, monolithic bullets. They expand rapidly, penetrate deep and maximize shock.

I normally use Barnes TTSX bullet of the lightest weight I can get for the caliber. I have been very, very impressed with their performance.

Just yesterday, my uncle shot a nice buck with a 243Win (you know, that cartridge that is so often "not enough for deer" in the internet world?) loaded with 80gr Barnes TTSX bullet at 3,465fps.

It was a steep quartering away shot. The bullet shattered the rear leg and penetrated all the way up through the diaphragm. At least 3 feet of penetration, AFTER shattering an average sized adult bucks leg. Following the blood trail, you'd have sworn it was a double lung shot. The bleeding was massive. He went about 300 yards.

Yesterday afternoon, I shot an average sized doe at about 40 yards with the same bullet, loaded to about 3,550 in my 243AI. The bullet destroyed both lungs, splattered her heart and completely shattered the off-side shoulder. She went about 75 yards. I made an almost identical shot 2 years ago with a 110gr 7mm Barnes TTSX at 2,850fps from a 15" Encore handgun and that deer dropped where it stood and quit moving before it could even TRY to get up.

Speed kills.

(but you still have to hit 'em right)
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Old November 19, 2012, 03:53 PM   #17
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On a heart-shot deer, sometimes the heart has a hole in it, and sometimes it is burst apart. I think the difference is whether the bullet passed through the chamber when it was fully inflated with blood (causing it to burst) or not. In both cases the deer was DRT.

I read a letter-to-the-editor of a hunting mag once, written by a cardiologist deer hunter. The good doctor theorized that the occasional instant-collapse of deer/elk is due to the bullet passing through the heart while the aeortic valve is open. This allows a hydraulic shock wave to travel to the brain and stun the animal. The shock wave is not fatal by itself, but by the time the animal recovers from shock, it has bled out. This theory always made sense to me.
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Old November 19, 2012, 05:59 PM   #18
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Yep that heart has some wonderous effects in the deer when hit by a screaming projectile. I have seen the deer run like I missed it, only to fall 75 yds or so. I have seen a good buck jump straight into the air like a bucking bronc, and run for 100 yds, and that heart was hamburger. But the one that puzzles me mostly is a little doe I shot several years back, with a .270 win, 130 grain Ballistic Tip, poi was just behind the knucle of her shoulder, and she jumped straight up into the air like she was bouncing off a trampoline, she ran for 1/4 mile where I found her, (blood trail) 3 hrs later eating brush.. I shot her again in the same area only on the other side, only for her to again jump straight into the air like shot out of a cannon, only to land dead, her heart was hamburger, both bullets passed through her chest, but I think only the last hit her heart well.
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Old November 19, 2012, 06:33 PM   #19
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It was a steep quartering away shot. The bullet shattered the rear leg and penetrated all the way up through the diaphragm.
Bet that was a fun field dressing job!

I shot this year's buck in the chest and the bullet just clipped the top of the heart ..... The buck reared up and turned 3 circles on his hind legs, pawing at the air with one front leg (the other leg was broken by the bullet) before falling over backwards, DRT. Wierd.
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Old November 19, 2012, 06:59 PM   #20
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Reposted from a similar 2010 thread.

I have either killed or witnessed the killing of maybe 40 deer, with everything from service pistol calibers (above 9mm) through the classic bigbore revolvers, centerfire rifles from .223 through 45-70. Oh, 12 and 20 gauge slugs, too.

FWIW the only 'instant kills' I have seen have been when the bullet destroyed the spine at the shoulder- as in 'wrecked it' and sailed on through. Didn't matter if it was a 240 grain .44 SWC at 1000 fps, 150 grain softpoint from a 30-30 at over 200 yards- or a 175 grain softpoint from a long-barreled 7mm Mauser. Didn't matter if the deer were standing still or in a flat-out sprint. Bang. Flop. Skid.

Shots that took out the shoulder bone (front of the shoulder on whitetail) anchored them almost as fast, though a finishing shot was sometimes required. Broadside heart shots generally elicited about a 20 yard trot followed by a flop.

Worst shot I ever made was on a doe that goosed just as I pressed off a 300 grain .44 XTP at 1350 fps, and it landed about halfway down the back under the spine. That one was a 250 yard tracking job with a dead deer at the end.
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Old November 19, 2012, 09:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by jimbob86
Bet that was a fun field dressing job!
I went back to get the truck and didn't see the results. I didn't hear any stories but I suspect it wasn't pretty.
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Old November 19, 2012, 10:28 PM   #22
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Water is an incompressible fluid. Blood is mostly water. You release a bunch of energy into a pipe or a jug of water and it blows out the containment. Yes, a shock wave is created, which may cause a pipe elbow to rupture.

So, similarly with blood vessels in an animal. The shock wave can travel, but if the blood vessel is ruptured by bullet fragments the shock wave might not travel very far at all. You can't predict with certainty as to "shock therapy".

So we're back to the more reliable issues of wound channel and tissue damage.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:20 PM   #23
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the hunting round I select must put the animal down and and maximize the amount of meat on the grill.

bullets with lots of hydro static shock tend to fail the last test.

Remember PETA stands for People eating tasty animals.
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Old November 20, 2012, 07:55 AM   #24
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Results of using match or target type bullets on game may be less than optimum. While there are many who use this combination, it's not recommended by the bullet makers and I'll bet they've a reason for this advice.
Case in point. Last week, I witnessed a medium sized buck hit in the lower chest(possibly a little further back than perfect) by a 155 BTHP match bullet-2800+fps MV-hit at 200 yards still well over 2500 fps. Solid thump indicated a body hit and deer ran off. No blood trail and deer not recovered. I'm sure the deer died somewhere since a .308 hole anywhere in the body cavity is nearly always fatal. The fact that the hit occurred in a wide open field made no diff. A 3 hour search by an experienced hunter/tracker failed.
A few days prior to this fiasco, I saw the result of this same bullet hitting a deer in a frontal presentation. Bullet struck ribs and grenaded, dropping deer instantly. Two hits with totally opposite results simply due to resistance encountered indicates this is not an acceptable game bullet.
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Old November 20, 2012, 08:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ltc444 View Post
the hunting round I select must put the animal down and and maximize the amount of meat on the grill.

bullets with lots of hydro static shock tend to fail the last test.

Remember PETA stands for People eating tasty animals.
I don't know why you'd think that. Explosive bullets aren't high on hydrostatic shock. That's not hydrostatic shock, that's bullets doing lots of damage.

Hydrostatic shock is the shock wave created by the bullet rapidly pushing fluid, as Art described. Bullets that are best at that are bullets that stay in one piece. Monolithic, expanding bullets... Like the Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX... and they are also the bullets that minimize meat damage by not blowing into pieces throughout the animal.

Hydrostatic shock isn't the phenomenon of dropping an animal where is stands, though it might contribute to dropping the animal. Hydrostatic shock is damage to places you didn't actually hit with the bullet.

The first deer I ever hit with a Barnes bullet is a good example. I was shooting a 110gr TTSX out of my 15" Encore Pro Hunter. I was in a tree and the shot was close. The bullet entered high on the deers right side, just behind the shoulder and exited about 1/3 the body width up from the bottom of the left side. I hit the upper, back portion of the lungs, I estimate that I missed the heart by at least 6 inches but the top of the heart was blown open.

THAT is hydrostatic shock. Ruined not an ounce of meat.
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