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Old November 17, 2012, 06:42 AM   #26
OldMarksman
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The report that she had time to put the magazine in her gun and racked the slide after drawing it would seem to indicate that the man did not present an imminent danger of serious harm.

More importantly, it indicates that she would have been in a world of hurt if he had,
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Old November 17, 2012, 07:58 AM   #27
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i would have to look up the R.C.W.(revised code of Washington) but i think it was a justified because the lady did have her young son with her.
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Old November 17, 2012, 08:09 AM   #28
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Quote:
The report that she had time to put the magazine in her gun and racked the slide after drawing it would seem to indicate that the man did not present an imminent danger of serious harm.
Time to put a mag in the gun and charge it isn't hardly a good criterion for whether or not she was in imminent danger. Her life could have still be threatened and she had time to react and load her gun for whatever reason, if anything just because the flasher was inept or otherwise busy (as previously noted), had he had bad intentions.

I certainly know folks who can load and make ready a gun to fire quicker that others can draw from ankle carry. Would that mean that if you have the time to draw from ankle carry that you are not in imminent danger?

I do agree that she wasn't in any apparent imminent danger. The flasher was not reported with any sort of gun or knife, did not threaten bodily harm, and more importantly...

Quote:
He allegedly sat down and began performing a sex act and said she should watch.
If he is sitting, he can't kick her. Sitting and doing what he was doing does not indicate that he is about to jump her or otherwise give chase. No knife, gun, or any other type of projected force weapon was seen, so following typical self defense instructions, she should have been watching his hands if anything and seen the lack of weapons he could have used to hurt her from his seated position.

He was a perv and she drew down on him. Personally, I don't see the need for it. The only known threat was visual-only and easily mitigated. He wasn't threatening anything to her or her belongings. I think most people face greater threats commonly in shopping situations (Black Friday will have several), driving (road rage), and social situations such as at bars or parties where actual threats are made by people who are angry, but those are situations where drawing down on a person would not be appropriate at all in most cases.

That this guy might have done something more (assuming he must be a rapist because he is a flasher) isn't sufficient for drawing down on him either. No doubt we encounter people every day that might do something. To assume he must be a rapist because he is a flasher would be like assuming that because somebody got angry with you that they are going to kill you. After all, people suffer severe bodily harm and even murder as a result of confrontations that start off with just some angry words.

Probably the most prudent action which was not taken by the woman would have been to immediately start putting distance between herself and the pervert, taking her child with her thereby mitigating the threat to both. She could still have been drawing and readying her gun during that time and that likely would have been most reasonable given her apparent fear. Remaining in proximity to a perceived danger who has not threatened you (or one who has) is not prudent. She was not trapped in a confined space such as an elevator that would have made it necessary for her to remain in place.

She may have been 100% within the law to do what she did, which is great if that is the case. Hopefully with all the time she spent with the guy, she had a chance to get a very good description of him.
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Old November 17, 2012, 09:00 AM   #29
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Time to put a mag in the gun and charge it isn't hardly a good criterion for whether or not she was in imminent danger. Her life could have still be threatened and she had time to react and load her gun for whatever reason, if anything just because the flasher was inept or otherwise busy (as previously noted), had he had bad intentions.
True, but depending upon the distance, I think it begs the question.
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Old November 17, 2012, 10:14 AM   #30
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had he had bad intentions.
What qualifies as bad intentions? Was not what he was doing the mark of a depraved mind? Could he be recognized as anything but someone with mental problems and as such, very unpredictable?

Maybe he preparing to rape her. She did good. People do not do such things in public, and a reasonable and prudent person would draw down on a perv such as this. He had focused his attention on her and spoke to her in a depraved and unpredictable state. Nuff said.
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Old November 17, 2012, 10:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by youngunz4life
if the article was incorrect, this woman (for starters) was being assaulted....
Do you have any evidence that the article was incorrect and that she actually was being physically assaulted? If not, we need to stick with what we know.

We're discussing an actual event. Let's not turn this into a discussion of an imaginary event.
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Old November 17, 2012, 10:51 AM   #32
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Does anyone here know what Washington State laws would apply in this case?
This is why I found this to be an interesting news story to post.
There seems to be a lot of interpretation to the intentions or mindset of the perpetrator.
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Old November 17, 2012, 11:38 AM   #33
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I am failing to see any issue with this woman doing what she did to protect her child and herself. Good for her.
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Old November 17, 2012, 11:51 AM   #34
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Woman, child, large dog, perv , gun.
Yes there are mistakes . She should have immediately left the area and reported it.
If he followed she first should have told the dog to 'get him'.
If that didn't work she should have drawn the gun.
Carrying an unloaded gun is stupid !!!! He could have disarmed her while she's trying to load !!!
Avoid stupid statements to the perv like "I'll blow your head off" Looks very bad in court.Don't engage in conversation with any BG.
Don't assume things like 'most pervs aren't rapists ".
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Old November 17, 2012, 12:03 PM   #35
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We can absolutely not attribute any mistakes to this lady because she won and is ok. Perhaps she could have handled it differently or ascribed some continuim of force protocol, but having won, that's all moot.
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Old November 17, 2012, 12:07 PM   #36
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He could have disarmed her while she's trying to load !!!
She had a faster loading sequence than he did.
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Old November 17, 2012, 12:23 PM   #37
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To bad she didn't sick the dog on him whilst he was in the middle of his sex act.

Would have made a bored cops day to show up on the scene with rover attached to the pervs. junk.
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Old November 17, 2012, 12:40 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by jhenry
I am failing to see any issue with this woman doing what she did to protect her child and herself...
Except that she and her child were most likely not in any physical danger and could have left the area. That means that a threat with lethal force was most likely not legally justified.

I know we all find it very pleasing that this woman was able to send a pervert scurrying. The mental image of him startled by her display of a gun is very satisfying. We like these kinds of happy endings. But that doesn't make this incident a good illustration of an appropriate use of lethal force in self defense.

She'll probably suffer no legal repercussions. But that will most likely be more a question of politics.
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:33 PM   #39
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"Most likely not in danger" is your assessment in the cold light of day. It was not her assessment apparently. Unless the dog was trained to attack that part of the equation is moot. The sex offender could have easily, in her mind and in fact, have been a serious threat to life and limb. Turning one's back on him is not something I would recommend either. She did not open fire, she did warn him off, and in this state at least, what she did would not be considered brandishing in that he was in the act of committing a crime against her and her child. Good for her.
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:37 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by jhenry
"Most likely not in danger" is your assessment in the cold light of day. It was not her assessment apparently. Unless the dog was trained to attack that part of the equation is moot. The sex offender could have easily, in her mind and in fact, have been a serious threat to life and limb....
She's probably fortunate that she's is probably not going to have to try to make that argument. The vast majority of flashers do not present a physical risk. And it is a "reasonable person" test.
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:47 PM   #41
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It is quite unlikely that this woman has the training or experience to understand the "most" flashers do not approach or make physical contact with their victims. It would not be reasonable to expect that she would. On the other hand I think a reasonable person would not fail to understand her being in fear for herself and her child. Especially the child.

As for the sex offender, I can give you examples I am aware of of flashers absolutely breaking the mold and attacking their victims. Unusual to be sure, unheard of, not much.
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:52 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by jhenry
It is quite unlikely that this woman has the training or experience to understand the "most" flashers do not approach or make physical contact with their victims. It would not be reasonable to expect that she would....
Now you're just speculating with absolutely no data. All you have is wishful thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhenry
...As for the sex offender, I can give you examples I am aware of of flashers absolutely breaking the mold and attacking their victims....
Then do so, with solid documentation.
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:09 PM   #43
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Do you really think scientific data is required to understand that most folks do not have the knowledge and understanding to make accurate decisions on the fly, let alone in a crisis, regarding the potential for harm to their child or themselves when faced with a situation like this. Please.

As to the other, PM sent.
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:10 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
The vast majority of flashers do not present a physical risk. And it is a "reasonable person" test.
Who knows how many people have been raped and murdered by flashers.
The witnesses would be dead, so I believe your argument cannot be substantiated.
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:22 PM   #45
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Changed to reflect pax's explanation of the law in Washington

Quote:
Posted by jhenry: On the other hand I think a reasonable person would not fail to understand her being in fear for herself and her child. Especially the child.
Fear of what? Was she threatened with the unlawful use of force?

Last edited by OldMarksman; November 17, 2012 at 04:52 PM.
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:26 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhenry
Do you really think scientific data is required to understand that most folks do not have the knowledge and understanding to make accurate decisions on the fly,...
No, but an opinion to merit attention should have some meaningful support -- more than a satisfying guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhenry
As to the other, PM sent.
Nothing received as of now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microgunner
Who knows how many people have been raped and murdered by flashers.
The witnesses would be dead, so I believe your argument cannot be substantiated.
There has been a fair amount of study of sexual predation. Standard recommendation is to leave. And while it's been found that some exhibitionists graduate to assault or rape, in this case the perpetrator was sitting down and, according to the report, did not appear to make any overt gesture consistent with an attack.
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:45 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
There has been a fair amount of study of sexual predation. Standard recommendation is to leave. And while it's been found that some exhibitionists graduate to assault or rape, in this case the perpetrator was sitting down and, according to the report, did not appear to make any overt gesture consistent with an attack
My emphasis

With a pistol in his pocket? Who knows? Too big a risk to give the benefit of doubt IMO.

The deviate is a felon after all.
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:57 PM   #48
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I just practiced standing up. I can stand up rather quickly, of course my hands were free at the time.

Let us not forget disparity of force as well, to include the child.
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Old November 17, 2012, 04:22 PM   #49
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Based on the fact that the article did not mention whether the police were charging the woman with an unlawful act, seems like any argument whether she is culpable or not is moot.
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Old November 17, 2012, 04:30 PM   #50
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The situation called for an immediate, strong dose of pepper spray to the guy's wanker.

Displaying the firearm or using OC on the offender is an appropriate level of force in this situation, IMO. Shooting him would have been inappropriate, unless the offender escalated to a physical attack. It is not reasonable to expect her to retreat, since the speed of her retreat would have been hampered by her young child.

You can find the relevant WA state statute at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.270
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

...

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

....

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
Displaying the weapon was an appropriate level of force because she was protecting herself against the present threat of unlawful force. He told her to watch him yank off. Why? Because he believed he could force her to comply, and apparently so did she, which is why she drew the gun. She may have been able to retreat; however, the speed of her retreat would certainly have been hampered by the presence of her young child.

Note that she did not shoot him. She displayed the weapon to make him stop, and she stopped using any level of force against him as soon as it was obvious that he was no longer interested in using force against her.

All's well that ends well -- although on a gut level, I wish she had put his fire out with a little OC instead.

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