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Old November 1, 2012, 08:05 AM   #1
Kimio
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Medium caliber recoil, questions in regards to posture

So I've been trying new things and trying to see what might be an effective way to try and manage the higher recoil that comes from the .308/7.62x51 rounds.

I'm short and relatively light weight at 5'2" 137lb, the recoil itself is not real bad in terms of what is felt, but I notice that I seem to have a hard time making rapid follow up shots in succession since I'm getting shoved and pushed around a lot. I'm using irons, and this affects my off hand shooting the most.

I've tried leaning more into the rifle but if I try leaning in any further, I may just fall over. I also try to keep a good firm grip on the rifle while making sure I have a good cheek weld and the stock glued to my shoulder. No post rigiamortis death grip here but just the basics.

Is there anything else I can do to try and compensate for this in terms of posture and technique or is it down to mechanics at this point and an investment in a muzzle break/compensator might be the next best course of action?
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Old November 1, 2012, 09:24 AM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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Balance is important. If you're "leaning" into it to the extent that you're off-balance, it will make things worse.

http://www.rifle-accuracy-reports.co...positions.html
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Old November 1, 2012, 10:01 AM   #3
kraigwy
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There are two schools of thought, both work, but for different shooting situations.

Sling Position: Using the sling to support the rifle, and in High Power or Small Bore Shooting. The sling does the work in supporting the rifle, and distributes the recoil throughout the body. If done right, you fall back into position with your NPA after recoil. The tighter the position, the less effect of recoil and the faster you get back on target.

It's best to go to a CMP GSM Clinic or Appleseed event to get coached in using the sling. Go to the CMP bookstore and get a copy of the AMU Service Rifle Guide ($6.95).

The second, witch is used in long rang precision rifle shooting is referred to as "driving the rifle".

What this amounts to is getting straight behind the rifle. Under recoil the rifle comes straight back. No angle what so ever. Your body absorbs all the recoil equally. As you fire, the rifle jump should not to the left or right under recoil, but straight back. No lateral movement at all of the muzzle.

A good way to practice this method is get a shooting mat, or piece of tarp to shoot off of. Draw a line straight down the center of the mat. The where you elbows set, draw a line across the mat making a perfect Cross.

Line up so your body and rifle is straight down the line you drew down the length of the mat. Place you elbows on the lines that go across the mat.

As you shoot, the rifle will come straight back with no muzzle movement to the right or left.

Again it would be best if you could work under a coach to learn this method, baring that Jacob Bynum, Rifles Only, puts out a great DVD "Precision Rifle -Disk 1, Fundamentals" .

I would highly recommend this DVD to anyone, old or new, who is interested in precision rifle shooting.

----------------------------------------

A bit off topic now: I'm a high power shooter, I use the sling and NRA or CMP positions, either in competition, practice, sighting in and hunting. Been doing it for a long time (competitively since 1977).

When I use to hear the term "driving the rifle" I always laughed, "you drive trucks, you shoot rifles".

When I got and studied the Rifles Only DVD and found out you can teach an old dog new tricks.

The Method taught by Jacob is in fact driving the rifle. He compares this method much like you would drive a car. An example (If I can do this without infringing on copy write material) is, as you drive down the road, you don't think about going straight. Put your hand on the steering wheel, you don't make drastic changes guiding the car. Slight unconscious movements of your hand keeps the car going straight.

Same with the rifle.

Bynum shows the comparison in keeping the rifle straight, hence, no muzzle jump to either side.

Again, I'd recommend the RO DVD to everyone who shoots a rifle.

The DVD covers other items, related to precision rifle shooting aside from the OPs question.
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Old November 1, 2012, 04:51 PM   #4
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If you're shooting from the standing position, rather than prone or off the bench, try standing more square to the target.
You should be shoved around less, than when standing more bladed or angled.
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Old November 1, 2012, 05:06 PM   #5
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Balance is important.
That's the key!
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Old November 3, 2012, 11:36 PM   #6
johnwilliamson062
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A few years back a pretty good shooter told=d me to shoot all my long guns from the 22LR ?Olympic? position. I started shooting trap that way and my scores edged up a bit. I started shooting multi-target sporting clays like that and my scores edged up a bit. M1 Garand and AR worked also. I am not sure it is the fastes way to shoot, but the consistency in method seems to make up for any faults in the posture.

IDK if it would work well for a super magnum or the ?57 T-rex? though.
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Old November 12, 2012, 12:01 AM   #7
sc928porsche
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From a standing position you should be at a natural angle to the target. That is........bring the rifle straight up and it should come on target without moving left or right. For most, that is about 60-70 degrees to the target. Right upper arm should be parallel to the ground which forms a good pocket for the buttstock. Stance should be level, neither leaning a lot to the front and definately not to the back. To adjust for recoil, simply widen your stance.
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Old November 12, 2012, 11:47 PM   #8
gk1
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I'm 5'7, 140, and was more like 110 when I started shooting a Garand. Technique will help a lot, but recoil is always going to affect you more than someone heavier who also practices good form. You will move more, but I think my shoulder bruises less, too; at least that's what I tell myself
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Old November 13, 2012, 09:52 AM   #9
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
The second, witch is used in long rang precision rifle shooting is referred to as "driving the rifle".

What this amounts to is getting straight behind the rifle. Under recoil the rifle comes straight back. No angle what so ever. Your body absorbs all the recoil equally. As you fire, the rifle jump should not to the left or right under recoil, but straight back. No lateral movement at all of the muzzle.

A good way to practice this method is get a shooting mat, or piece of tarp to shoot off of. Draw a line straight down the center of the mat. The where you elbows set, draw a line across the mat making a perfect Cross.

Line up so your body and rifle is straight down the line you drew down the length of the mat. Place you elbows on the lines that go across the mat.

As you shoot, the rifle will come straight back with no muzzle movement to the right or left.
I have seen people do this, but never read the explanation. Thanks. I was still using the offset to the left position illustrated by little green army guys in the prone.

Seems as if having one's right shoulder farther forward would change where his cheek lands. Does "driving the rifle" allow a taller fellow to use a shorter stock?
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Old November 13, 2012, 11:07 AM   #10
L_Killkenny
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Lot's of good advice. Perfect shooting posture, stance and habits help control recoil, true that. But this is also a great example of one reason why military's no longer use cartridges like this for general duty.

Fact is that if you don't want to be pushed around by so much recoil, shoot a gun that recoils less. Comparable skill vs. comparable skill, comparable platform vs. comparable platform, the shooter with a gun that doesn't recoil as much will always recover faster for follow up shots.

The OP doesn't mention his intent or the gun he's shooting but if I read between the lines (big mistake I know) I'd say losing the .308 and getting something with less recoil would be a good place to start.
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Old November 13, 2012, 12:04 PM   #11
Old Grump
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Quote:
Medium caliber recoil, questions in regards to posture
So I've been trying new things and trying to see what might be an effective way to try and manage the higher recoil that comes from the .308/7.62x51 rounds.

I'm short and relatively light weight at 5'2" 137lb, the recoil itself is not real bad in terms of what is felt, but I notice that I seem to have a hard time making rapid follow up shots in succession since I'm getting shoved and pushed around a lot. I'm using irons, and this affects my off hand shooting the most.

I've tried leaning more into the rifle but if I try leaning in any further, I may just fall over. I also try to keep a good firm grip on the rifle while making sure I have a good cheek weld and the stock glued to my shoulder. No post rigiamortis death grip here but just the basics.

Is there anything else I can do to try and compensate for this in terms of posture and technique or is it down to mechanics at this point and an investment in a muzzle break/compensator might be the next best course of action?
What gun are you shooting, competition or just practicing for hunting? I taught a WAC who was 5'6" and 125 lbs and her problem was tiny hands and weak grip. M14 was almost to big for her. I had her doing arm curls with 5 pound barbells, squeezing a rubber ball, speed walking a mile every other day and situps. I wasn't trying to build her up so much as make her think she was getting stronger and she came around a few months later to being a pretty good offhand slow fire shot.

If you know how to get your natural point of aim you are good, the leaning into the rifle is never good, better to pull the rifle back into your shoulder. You might just try releasing the forearm, putting your palm out flat and let the gun lay on your palm. The grip you are concerned with is the trigger hand holding the rifle in place. Old school method but then I am a dinosaur and its what I was taught by Alley Oop back in the day.

Being in fighting shape really helps, good wind, core strength and stamina will really help you. Same workout I used for boxing helped my shooting more than it did my fighting.
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Old November 13, 2012, 01:13 PM   #12
Kimio
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My hands are 3" width for my palms and roughly 6 1/2" from the heel of my palm to the tip of my middle finger.

So my hands are not exactly massive, but I suppose they're not tiny either.

I'm firing an FN FAL as well as my M91/30 Mosin Nagant, the Mosin doesn't give me as much of a problem, the FAL for whatever reason throws me a round a lot or so it seems.

I'm not necessarily weak, the military kind of forces me to keep in shape for the most part.

I'll see if I can take some video next time I'm out or some pictures at least to give ya'll a look at what I may be doing wrong.
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Old November 13, 2012, 02:09 PM   #13
Old Grump
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Assuming both rifles are about the same weight the FN FAL should have less felt recoil so I am guessing without being able to see you that it is a stock fit problem. If you have to reach farther with the FN you are starting out at a disadvantage. do you know the length of pull from butt to trigger on each gun.
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Old November 13, 2012, 08:08 PM   #14
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
The second, witch is used in long rang precision rifle shooting is referred to as "driving the rifle".
I just tried this in dry fire while my daughter was at her piano lesson.

It does make a short stock less an issue, but it feels very odd -- especially the buttplate against the collarbone.

How long did you practice before you stopped trying to swing the muzzle left?
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:06 PM   #15
SHR970
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Standing on the shy side of 5'4" and before the midlife weight gain hit I was 125 lbs. so I can take an educated guess on your problem. You didn't mention anything about having the LOP reduced to fit you. The fact that the Moisin doesn't give you as much issue is part of the give away to your issue.

Moisin's have a shorter LOP than a FAL 13.5" vs. 14.25"....that 3/4" makes a huge difference in how you end up holding the gun. This is forcing you to lean too far back and hold your other arm out more to hold up the weight of the gun. This stretching is putting you off balance and exacerbates the recoil. For me, I prefer about a 13"-13.25" LOP. Get measured by a smith and have the stock shortened to fit you; it will make a world of difference.
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