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Old November 16, 2012, 10:27 PM   #26
Mystro
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Absolutely. For this girls intended purpose a good mace fogger is easier to aim and hit your target and doesn't require a lot of skill. I have seen squirrels take 22lr body shots and run away.

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So now pepper spray beats a 22???
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:11 AM   #27
Bill DeShivs
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NO handgun will immediately disable someone without a central nervous system hit-whether it's a .22 or a .45. They may very well stop what they are doing with a shot to the toe, but it will be from pain, shock, fear, or a combination of these.
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Old November 17, 2012, 01:41 AM   #28
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Everyone's heard of the case of the South Carolina state trooper who shot a perp 6 times, 357 Magnum 158 gr hollow-point rounds, 5 hits center mass, afterwards the perp returned fire with a 22 cal NAA mousegun...hit the trooper in the heart, the trooper collapsed and died at the scene.
Watching that video sucks, I can't stand listening to his radio traffic as he's dying. A 22 will kill you, no doubt about it. I personally wouldn't want it as a SD gun for everyday carry, but if that's what your daughter likes then let her keep it.
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:00 AM   #29
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NO handgun will immediately disable someone without a central nervous system hit-whether it's a .22 or a .45. They may very well stop what they are doing with a shot to the toe, but it will be from pain, shock, fear, or a combination of these.
Exactly. And a 9mm/.40/.45 is a lot better than a .22 at stopping someone due to pain, shock, fear, or a combination of those.
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Old November 17, 2012, 08:33 AM   #30
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The 22 cal handgun is not known as a stopper. In 1957, in El Segundo, California, a perp (using a 22 cal snubby) shot 2 police officers, but before collapsing, one of the officers fired at the fleeing perp, hitting the perp in the shoulder. Both officers died at the scene. 47 years later the perp was caught, perhaps the oldest solved cold case on record.

That's the problem with the 22 cal handgun, even a shot the thru the heart can give the victim about 15 seconds to return fire, (in a gunfight 15 seconds is a long time) and for an instant stop an accurate head shot(s) is/are needed (ie Colorado Springs incident).

All things being equal, the small accurate 22 cal handgun can be superior to a small heavy recoiling 357 handgun ... only accurate hits count.

Now, to find a small accurate 22 cal handgun.
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Old November 17, 2012, 07:18 PM   #31
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Sell your .22 and go buy a cheap 12 gauge. I would NEVER rely on a .22 to save my life.
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Old November 17, 2012, 08:39 PM   #32
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militant

Sell your .22 and go buy a cheap 12 gauge. I would NEVER rely on a .22 to save my life.
Keep the .22 and still get a 12--it's that time of the year where the more the merrier !!!
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Old November 17, 2012, 09:09 PM   #33
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From PT-92:

I want to preface this statement by first stating that I am a big-time fan of the .22lr for so many reasons and even do not categorically discount it as a SD caliber in certain circumstances (for that matter, I often carry a Bobcat 21A as a BUG mostly because I haven't picked up a .380 yet).

But I have to say that there is absolutely no empirical data available for the continued "old-wives-tale" and seemingly perpetual myth that the .22lr caliber is responsible for more (recorded) deaths than any other caliber. Again I ask (plead) for a LINK to the empirical data that speaks to such. I, and as far as I know at least up until now, no one, has been able to produce said data--it's my belief that's because it's not true.

I get where the "belief" comes from in that the .22lr is very $cheap$ in all respects from the guns to ammo and, hence, it's quite popular in the inner-cities where the crime rates are "Beirut" like sky-rocketing (no, I don't buy the Feds stats that purport otherwise anymore than I buy their "shrinking unemployment" data).

Sorry if I went off on a tangent but I would really like to see the data that proves me wrong--otherwise it's time we put the "myth" to bed, if you will.

-Cheers

Okay, here are some links:

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-ca...ng-humans.html

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-self-defense/

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Now granted, I couldn't find "official" stats like from some government form, but in the first link the source claims he is a retired sheriff deputy, and I guess he can do a better job than me researching the FBI site statistics. And on the form he's on he's a senior member and has over 12,000 posts to his credit.

The other links are from The Truth About Guns site, and Buckeye Firearms. I don 't know how credible they are, but in both articles they offer some very interesting information.

The most interesting stat I think is number of rounds by caliber required for incapacitation. Don't hate on me, I'm just relaying the message. The reports say the 22 caliber has the lowest number of hits needed aside from a 12 gauge shotgun.
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Old November 17, 2012, 09:43 PM   #34
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ShotgunHunter,

Thanks much for the links!

I love reading data like this (from just a preliminary surface overview, it looks like some very interesting reading tonight). BTW, it almost appears 'impossible' to find (as you mentioned) official hospital or gov. data concerning handgun fatalities via caliber--I gotta believe the FBI is aware and I cannot understand why the data is either sensitive, controversial or classified.

One final note, I want to find out from the articles you link to if any .22lr "Rifles" were a considered variable (I've seen studies that included this as well).

-Cheers
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Old November 17, 2012, 11:35 PM   #35
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Yeah PT,

It's pretty frustrating trying to sort out the details. And it really only matters to me because of my little girl. I just want to know she is safe.

If a 22 will protect her because she can handle it well so be it. Yeah, I'd like to up her to a higher caliber. Of course I would. But I won't force her.

I'll keep at it though, taking her to the range and trying to get her used to a bigger pop gun. Hopefully she'll realize her old man is right
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Old November 18, 2012, 11:16 AM   #36
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Quote:
Mystro
Absolutely. For this girls intended purpose a good mace fogger is easier to aim and hit your target and doesn't require a lot of skill. I have seen squirrels take 22lr body shots and run away.

Quote:
Quote:
So now pepper spray beats a 22???
I really hope you don't believe this and I hope the young woman or her father doesn't either.
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Old November 18, 2012, 11:17 AM   #37
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Wow. Good reading. Thank you.
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Old November 18, 2012, 01:04 PM   #38
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The biggest advantage that the larger calibers give... is more reliable penetration.

The 22 can penetrate enough when the right round is used. From the tests I have seen online, the CCI velocitor is the one to get for a handgun. It penetrates the most, at 15 inches. (from a 3.5 inch barrel)

The problem is bone and other harder to penetrate parts of the body. The 22 is less able to punch through those areas and still penetrate adequately, than a larger caliber like 9mm is.

If you shoot an attacker, hit their sternum and it prevents the rounds from penetrating enough to hit the heart, or alters its course enough to miss, well then its not doing its job. But this is where the low recoil and several follow up shots can help.

So it can work well, but as I said, the larger calibers do offer distinct advantages... so long as the shooter can shoot the pistol well.
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Old November 18, 2012, 11:21 PM   #39
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22 cal power

"Oh! the .22 is a terrible round! Oh, it won't do you any good as an EDC! Oh, you NEED to get the bigger, badder WHATZADINGHY in the OMG caliber, or else all is lost!"

GET REAL!

Go ask Robert Kennedy. Ask Jim Brady. Ask the surgeon that operated on Ronald Reagan! Ask the other guys that were with Reagan that day.

Then go ask those folks in the Gambino family, in NYC.

The lowly, unloved, looked down upon .22 Long Rifle round has done the job, so to speak, for years.

I agree with the ccw trainers, who have stated to "empty the magazine". So, in that premise, unloading all those .22's, preferably a 'business' load, and not a 'target' load, "into the area between the shirt pockets", should provide enough metal, to stop up the works.

I have "WHATZADINGHY'S" IN THE "OMG CALIBER". I also own SW model 15's. But in the present post-election reality within the US, as we bemoan the passing of Drake's Cakes, ammunition is becoming a larger chunk of money.

Ergo, the lowly .22 Long Rifle may become a better choice to scrutinize. It does not offer too great recoil, which means a more solid return to target. Sure, there are finicky firearms-to-ammo combos. Do your homework before you buy. There are decent handguns chambered in .22 Long Rifle, that are not designed, just for paper punching, and not too costly. (my 'not too costly' references are: BHP MKIII NIB $900.00; SW Mod 15-3 from some CA sheriff office - reworked and refinished - $350.00.) There are many YouTube review videos on .22 Long Rifle pistols, of all sorts. Watch and learn.

Since .22 Long Rifle does NOT have a history of being scrutinized by the Geneva Convention, unlike other handgun calibers, you are free to use all lead, copper coated, or any other devised bullet design. Me? I like Remington Yellow Jackets, and it's brother - same truncated cone, but a solid, not a hollow point bullet. They have enough powder loaded to cycle a semi-automatic pistol, reliably. They fly at, or better, the recommended minimum velocity for any serious use. They are accurate, and group well.

To sum up. .22 Long Rifle handguns can and do make the grade, both for target fun, small game, and 'EDC'. Become aware of the liabilities of the caliber, and find your niche within them. As to 'EDC', a hole in an organ, is still a hole, and can still be disruptive, enough.

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Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to destroy.
Do NOT finger that trigger until your firearm is pointed at the intended target.
Watch what is BEHIND your intended target.
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Old November 23, 2012, 10:46 AM   #40
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The most interesting stat I think is number of rounds by caliber required for incapacitation. Don't hate on me, I'm just relaying the message. The reports say the 22 caliber has the lowest number of hits needed aside from a 12 gauge shotgun.
From your link: Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things...

I think we may be better served by picking cartridges that perform well in the FBI's ballistics tests than choosing cartridges based on "one shot stops."
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Old November 23, 2012, 11:32 AM   #41
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Even though this question has been answered, I'd like to add the results of an actual demonstration on full sized USPSA popper targets.
These are set up at matches to fall down when hit with a single 9mm in the large circle section about 3' off the ground.
They will also go down if hit there with two to three rapidly fired .22s.
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Old November 23, 2012, 12:33 PM   #42
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The 22 lacks the power to immediately stop an attack. If you use a 22 for defense, you run the risk of getting shot before the threat has been eliminated.
Getting shot, or stabbed, or clubbed or whatever ..... you want it to stop RIGHT NOW!

Rules of Self Defense:

1. Pay attention, and you'll avoid having to use any weapon in all likelyhood.

2. Have a GUN. No sane, rational person wants to be shot with anything. Pepper spray "foggers" work both ways indoors or if the wind is blowing, and really determined people will not be deterred by stinging eyes and burning lungs. Even the most wacked out crankhead on PCP will stop beating you after a minute or so of no respiration.


3. Have the best gun you can in the situation, and be as proficient with as you can be. Bigger holes are better than smaller, more (energy/penetration/#of holes) is better than less, and only hits count.
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Old November 23, 2012, 01:51 PM   #43
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I was shot in the right shoulder with a 22LR. I can assure you that my immediate concerns were to get gone so I wouldn't get another one! It felt like a blow from a giant fist, stayed numb for a while then began to hurt a lot later.

I was in trouble so got home and pulled the bullet out of my own shoulder with a pair of tweezers and a pocket knife. I put the knife blade in the hole and felt a metallic "clink". I knew that it was accessible so I got after it with the tweezers. There is probably a piece of it still in the wound area as it itches like fire on occasion. The fact that it hit a heavily muscled area was probably an advantage as it was easier to reach. I never had any infection.

When I was first hit, I felt the blow and took some time (perhaps 10-20 seconds) to assess where I was hit and how badly. The blood was flowing freely and the shock of seeing my own blood was a trip. THAT is the time the shooter would use to get gone. That is what I did, too.

I worked with a lady who stole $200 from our company. She was accused, went home and shot herself in the head with a .22. She was unconscious for 4 days until she died. She left a note admitting her guilt. She was dead from one hit with a .22 over $200 stinking Dollars.

People who say .22's are not sufficient as SD rounds have NOT been shot with one. Those nasty little high velocity hollow points do a LOT of damage and will change the attitude of any sane man. I do not advocate the .22 as a carry gun but please don't keyboard commando this issue. Being hit with a .22 is BAD business!

A HIT with a .22LR is infinitely better than a MISS with a .44 magnum!

Flash
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Old November 23, 2012, 03:32 PM   #44
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A HIT with a .22LR is infinitely better than a MISS with a .44 magnum!
I guess that's all there is to say as far as shot placement is concerned. Don't know whether that's familiar, but even the mossad used the .22, and not only for assassination weapons (which is a completely different matter), but also for its flight security agents: http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...mossad-22-lrs/

From the "European" point of view, .22lr IS definitely suitable for SD. We have far less guns around here in general, so it is also quite unlikely that the common housebreaker comes with a gun. Alas, in the last years the probability of facing a guy coming at you with a knife or an iron rod in your own living room hast somewhat increased, modestly spoken. And for THOSE incidents, a .22 is still sufficient (carrying a gun outside the own premises is anyway restricted to very few specially licensed people. And the BGs of course who don't abide the laws...)
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