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Old November 16, 2012, 01:29 PM   #26
AH.74
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I got one specifically for when I'm on the bike. It's the only occasion I've had to use it but it fits that purpose very well. My primary riding jacket fits tight around the waist so I really can't use any of my other holsters.

I chose the Miami Classic Lite for a couple of reasons. One, I don't need a fancy molded leather holster for this use, and two, it has a single mag carrier rather than a double. I thought the single would be more comfortable for me and so far that has been accurate. I never carry a third mag under normal circumstances so don't need one while riding either.
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Old November 16, 2012, 02:21 PM   #27
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Thanks for the anecdotes MLeake. I knew there were situations like yours where shoulder rigs were useful, but didn't have first hand experience with one. The closest I've come so far is sleeping wrong, and having a kink in my back.

As for the debate between you and Jammer Six, may I suggest a both-right-both-wrong compromise? From one angle, yes, being able to train using this carry method would be helpful. From the other, I wouldn't want to be around some stranger in my range I didn't know practicing his shoulder holster carry. I would have to re-read the webpage of my range's rules, but they don't allow any holster work at all, at least until you jump through hoops, ringing bells, and blowing whistles at a class/workshop/skillstest of some kind showing you can do so safely. At that point I believe they'll allow any holster work though I couldn't say 100%.

Even if someone did that, I would not want to be around anyone with a crossdraw or shoulder holster doing training at a range. To some extent it goes back to the same reason we all carry. I'm not going to trust Officer Smith, or anyone else, to be there, and ready when I need defending. Even if their heart is in the right place, it's just not possible. So you take care of preparing for that situation yourself. It's human nature that you trust yourself a hell of a lot more than some stranger. You know you'll be safe and careful, but that yutz in the next bay who obviously thinks he's Yosemite Sam with the strong-hip+Cross draw, or Denzel from Training Day...

My personal solution is to go bang at the range, and load up with snapcaps and do holster work at home, alternating mirror and eyes closed.
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Old November 17, 2012, 12:04 AM   #28
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JimDandy, not all ranges are created equal. Note my comments on the setup of the one at my LGS.

While it is a bit more prepared for multi-dimensional training, it is not the only range I've been to where people have practiced "El Presidente" drills. My old IDPA club in Georgia did these at an outdoor range.

(This is a common drill, in multiple pistol organizations. With back to a row of three targets, at the whistle, the shooter turns and draws, double tapping each of the three targets; he reloads, then puts a round into the head of each target. Timed drill.)

Note that the range of motion the gun is likely to sweep during an El Presidente drill is very much the same as the range of motion likely to be swept from a crossdraw or shoulder holster draw.

Safety during such drills requires coordination and the strict following of basic procedures. This is not a drill that is supposed to be down with people in or near the arc of the sweep.

Your idea for practicing drawing drills at home isn't a bad one, but even there, safety protocols should be in place. (No ammo, for one thing.)
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Old November 17, 2012, 02:35 PM   #29
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Could someone explain to me what the danger is of drawing a handgun from a shoulder holster and moving it into position to aim at the target while keeping your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target?....

....if your gun is so dangerous that it might fire without the trigger being pressed, it's too dangerous to carry PERIOD!....
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Old November 17, 2012, 11:08 PM   #30
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seeker two, the concern is that under pressure (competition for time, for instance... and oh by the way, Jammer Six, Jim Cirillo has been quoted as saying that during his actual shootouts, he didn't notice the pressure, but he felt a lot of pressure during "games") a shooter may put a finger on the trigger prematurely, despite knowing better.

This is why, even with experienced shooters, it's a good idea to move bystanders out of the potential arc.

Here's another thing to consider, with regard to crossdraw or shoulder rigs: People make a point of learning weapon retention techniques, for example thrusting the weak hand out to fend off an attacker, while taking a step back with the strong side foot, and keeping the gun near the torso. If using a crossdraw or shoulder rig, that same move means the gun is no longer facing aft when drawn, but somewhere between 9:30 and 11:00 for a right handed shooter. That's how I was taught to draw from such holsters, but I guess it's something that some instructors feel is just too dangerous to practice...

Last edited by MLeake; November 18, 2012 at 02:00 AM.
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Old November 18, 2012, 02:10 AM   #31
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Last post on validity of specifically tailored instruction: among other things, I am a flight instructor. Instructed for the Navy, and hold CFI and CFII certificates.

Some instructors will not or cannot teach aerobatics. Aerobatic flight is relatively dangerous, compared to point A to point B flying (though it is pretty safe when instructed properly, with correct equipment and procedures). Teaching aerobatics can incur higher insurance premiums, and require more costly aircraft. Add the cost of parachutes and parachute upkeep, and many schools just don't find it profitable.

Does that make aerobatic training worthless? If it did, there would not be schools that specialize in aerobatics training.

Aside from being great fun, aerobatics offer two major benefits: first, they help a pilot develop more precise control of his aircraft; and second, they help a pilot learn upset recovery.

Such training comes in handy if a pilot manages to get into an out of control situation, whether induced by weather or turbulence from another aircraft. Several airline and corporate flight mishaps in the last couple decades could have had much happier endings if the pilots involved had received some aerobatic training. This is why many companies are putting pilots through upset recovery training in simulators, or even sending their pilots to aerobatics schools for upset recovery training.

Some people here, if their thoughts on weapons training were translated over to aviation, would just say "it is potentially risky and requires more specialized training, so obviously it is useless."

After all, it is easier and potentially less expensive to assume and establish training only for lowest common denominator abilities and needs.

Last edited by MLeake; November 18, 2012 at 02:52 AM.
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Old November 18, 2012, 07:58 AM   #32
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MLeake: All good points. I just hate to see a valuable tool in the toolbox discarded because some shooters get the vapors about theoretical disasters. To this date, I have never heard of anyone wearing a shoulder holster having a ND that was due to the holster design or its muzzle position.
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Old November 19, 2012, 01:02 AM   #33
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Seeker Two, the primary reason is that it will often violate Rule #1 of safe gun handling. Standing in a bay at my range, pulling my firearm out of my shoulder holster, I start with the muzzle pointed at everyone behind me, I then sweep it over everyone to my left, as I'm a righty. And while everyone here knows they, personally, are perfectly safe, nobody trusts that stranger three bays over to be safe, which is why I'd keep a slightly more watchful eye over anyone with a shoulder holster, or a cross-draw, etc. etc.
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Old November 19, 2012, 02:19 AM   #34
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JimDandy, that can often be resolved by putting the right handed shooter at the far left, or the left handed shooter at the far right.

It could also be resolved via individual lesson on a closed range.

You could probably come up with other, reasonable work-arounds if you put your mind to it.

"Difficult" does not equal "impossible."
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Old November 19, 2012, 09:56 AM   #35
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"I just hate to see a valuable tool in the toolbox discarded because some shooters get the vapors about theoretical disasters."

EVERYONE just knows that if you wear a horizontal shoulder holster you're going to be walking down the street drilling kids and Nuns, all without touching the trigger...

And, no matter what, when you draw from that horizontal holster, you're going to blow your arm off at the elbow because EVERYONE knows that the second you paint your arm with the muzzle the gun is going to fire. Doesn't matter if your finger is on the trigger or not, you WILL lose your arm...

And, EVERYONE knows that it's so much easier for Bobby Bad Guy to walk up to you, grab your gun, and kill you with it. See, shoulder holsters are dangerous because, even if it's properly concealed, every bad egg KNOWS you're wearing a shoulder holster and is suddenly imbued with the magical ability to approach you from the front and grab your gun, all while you stand there like a big frozen lump of nothing.

With a hip holster, though? That will NEVER happen because you own the magic then and are blessed with eyes in the back of your head that allows you to spot the approach of Bobby Bad Guy...
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Old November 19, 2012, 10:42 AM   #36
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Reductio ad absurdum aside, not many folks have said they're awful. Or even bad. Most of us have just pointed out that they have issues that have to be kept in mind, and that many ranges and range officers stop just short of immitating the robot from the original Lost In Space, making training with them problematic.

I own one. I've used it. It's not AS comfortable to me as IWB strong side hip (probably mostly due to being used to belts and not suspenders, which the tie downs can mimic), but if something happened and I couldn't wear that way for a while, I'd switch to the shoulder holster. I'd also make sure I kept those issues in mind. It is not possible to follow rule #1 with a shoulder holster, though to be completely literal it's probably not really possible to carry and follow Rule #1 100% of the time even with strong side hip.

Safeties and other mechanical parts break. I don't worry about it, but I keep that in mind whether I point the thing at my thigh and foot, or the guy behind me.
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Old November 19, 2012, 10:56 AM   #37
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Wow....ummmm...I carry my LW Commander occasionally in the X-15 Bianchi and have X-2100s for most of my revolvers. Well, not my S&W M-17, I gave that to my sonny boy so he could carry his 617 efficiently. I also have a 9R for a Colt Cobra. Buncha old Bianchi designs...I guess the 9R was a Berns & Martin in the beginning. I like em.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:04 AM   #38
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"Reductio ad absurdum"

I wish it could be dismissed so easily.

You can go through the nearly 14 years of discussions about sholder holsters here at TFL and find those very arguments, especially the one about blowing your arm off at the elbow and having the bad guy come up and strip your gun from your shoulder holster.

And not just once, either, but numerous times over the years, and some resoundingly silly scenarios have surfaced to "prove" those fears.

My all time favorite was probably the guy who claimed that the second I reached for a holstered gun the (obviously) 97th level ninja master facing me down, Sensi Hoo Flung Poo, I guess, would use his thumb knife to amputate my arm and would then take my gun.

Uhm.... yeah.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:25 AM   #39
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I use the inexpensive synthetic shoulder holsters when I sit in my chairs (spotted throughout my one acre woods). The chairs are the inexpensive plastic out-door chairs with arm rests. I find that with a should holster (worn on the outside of my coat), the gun is not knocking against or getting trapped by the arms of the chair as belt holsters do. In short, four holstering a gun outside of your coat, or sitting (as noted by other posters), shoulder holsters are better choices than other carry (not referring to concealed) methods. I know it makes my life easier waiting for an occasional racoon, fox, oposum (and someday if I am very, very lucky a ferrel pig), to come along.
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Old November 19, 2012, 12:02 PM   #40
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I wear a shoulder rig hunting as I sit a lot and have other stuff on my belt. If I wore a jacket more I'd probably wear it more often.

I've always thought that some people take the 1st rule a little to far with regards to holsters. After all, if you ever go upstairs with a belt holster you're pointing at everyone below you. If you keep one in a glovebox you're sweeping everyone you pass on the street.
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Old November 19, 2012, 05:40 PM   #41
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Well said, JimDandy.

I own a shoulder holster. I gave an example of when I use it.

I gave a legitimate argument against them, and then the arm waving started.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:28 PM   #42
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As my favorite CO put it, many years ago,

"People often say that Safety is our Number One priority. That isn't true. If Safety were our top priority, we would put all these aircraft in irons. Our number one priority is Mission Accomplishment. If we go about accomplishing our mission in a professional manner, then safety will be a resultant benefit. Professionalism is key."

He was exactly right.

So, for those who say that shoulder holsters, et al, aren't the safest possible rigs for carry or for practice, that's all well and good. But, if the mission dictates that those holsters are the equipment to be used, the two options become to err on the side of theoretical safety (IE don't train using the holsters), or to err on the side of professional mission accomplishment (IE train using the equipment one will be issued, but put safety measures in place after conducting proper Operational Risk Management).

I'd put it to you that carrying a weapon in a manner with which one has not trained, is setting up for a very unsafe condition. Just ask the USAF personnel who were killed by the Afghan colonel in Kabul last year if they agree... then again, you can't, because he killed all of them before any of them could draw and use a weapon.

If "instructors" are only training people for shooting basics, static position, at a range, then "absolute safety" is an affordable luxury. If instructors are training people who realistically might need to use those weapons, then real instructors find a way to accomplish the mission, professionally, with proper safety procedures in place.

Those who do otherwise are poseurs.
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Old November 19, 2012, 11:54 PM   #43
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In the cooler seasons I often carry a glock 19 in a Galco miami classic rig, under a jacket, parka, or bulky sweater... By far, it is the most comfortable way for me to carry.

I have an intestinal condition called which can sometimes make me very sensitive to tight trousers or a tight belt. I often cary IWB with a thin Walther PPS, but sometimes I just can't do it. Shoulder holster is the solution.

In the summer, I sometimes carry the PPS in a Kangaroo cotton shoulder rig under a tee or polo shirt.

90% of my carry is IWB, but I need the option of getting the gun off my hip sometimes.

I practice drawing and dry firing at home. My indoor range does not allow drawing from a holster, any holster.... and I like that ! I don't want to be at a range where people are drawing and firing.
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Old November 20, 2012, 06:29 AM   #44
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Mike Irwin

Quote:
"Reductio ad absurdum"

My all time favorite was probably the guy who claimed that the second I reached for a holstered gun the (obviously) 97th level ninja master facing me down, Sensi Hoo Flung Poo, I guess, would use his thumb knife to amputate my arm and would then take my gun
My niece teaches Krav Maga

She took my gun away from my holster once;

Damn scary quick.
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Old November 20, 2012, 07:59 AM   #45
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Did your niece KNOW you were armed, or did she just start kicking your ass and hit the jackpot?

I am not saying it's impossible for someone to get your gun from your holster, what I am saying is that your reactions to your niece getting close to you should be very different from a arranger getting close to you.

I also bet your niece could have gotten your gun no matter what kind of holster you were using.
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Old November 20, 2012, 08:58 AM   #46
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I've worn a shoulder holster off and on for over 50 years. Never had a problem. I do find it slower to draw but that's not a major factor. I also use belt holsters.

The only holsters that find problematic are pocket holsters. They all advertise that the gun comes out of the holster while the holster stays in the pocket. I have yet find one that stays in the pocket. I have tried about seven.
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Old November 20, 2012, 11:08 AM   #47
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And is there video of your neice kicking your ass?
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Old November 20, 2012, 04:06 PM   #48
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I carry a CZ P-01 in a Galco Miami Classic II and I love it.

I have a cheapo Uncle Mikes that I purchased a few years ago to see if I like it and I hated it. Never wore it and didn't feel the need to try another. Fast forward a few years and I have a friend with a Galco Executive that I tried and thought it was an ok fit but didn't like the single sided carry so I got the MCII and never looked back.

Moral of the story, you get what you pay for.
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Old November 20, 2012, 08:15 PM   #49
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Quote:
Did your niece KNOW you were armed, or did she just start kicking your ass and hit the jackpot?
Yes she knows I carry, she does also.
It was this




Damn glad she didn't grab the knife, she's damn wicked with them


Quote:
JimDandy And is there video of your neice kicking your ass?
NO





EDIT: There was a $50 bet if she could..............

She won.
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Old November 21, 2012, 10:12 AM   #50
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To be fair, had you been wearing an IWB it probably would have been even easier, as most don't have retention. It would be interesting to see how well she'd do against a Serpa level 2(ish) retention holster. Also be interesting to have her in one room, and you go in the other room concealing it differently each time and give her X seconds to find and capture it... just to see what she finds the easiest, and what's the trickiest angle for her to snatch from.
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