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Old November 23, 2012, 03:06 PM   #76
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Billy
People whose first priority is guns and is convinced that any who aren't as devoted to guns as they are is their enemy won't donate to WWP, but WWP is not their enemy, WWP doesn't have a dog in the gun-rights fight. Blaming them for that doesn't make a lot of sense.
I can only think that you haven't followed this thread and/or read transcripts and statements from WWP.

Every issue you raise has been addressed in this thread and elsewhere. WWP is not neutral. They are Anti and they can't explain it away. Every attempt to "clarify" how not Anti they are has only clarified that they are Anti.
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Old November 23, 2012, 04:00 PM   #77
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I've read all of what's posted here and all of the included links, and it seems to me that the WWP is considered to be "anti" only because they refuse to say they are "pro" by "co-branding" and allowing the use of their logo on weapons for sale. They haven't said anything that aligns them with the Brady Bunch, or Handgun Control, or endorsed any anti-gun legislation, or tried to limit CC rights, or anything else that would legitimately earn them the label of "anti". Any objective look at this says that they wish to be left out of the pro-anti gun debate, since their mission requires no interest in its results either way. It's the illogical, paranoid perspective that says that "if you aren't pro-gun you are anti gun" are the only possibilities which leaves out the most populated perspective - "we don't have an interest in either side of that argument, gun rights are not a part of our mission and so we take no definitive sides in it."

Their interest is in helping wounded veterans and not in gun issues. The WWF knows the error of unnecessarily limiting supporters with unrelated issues that don't bear on their mission and that's what they're pursuing, unlike the NRA that welds unrelated conservative politics and perspectives to gun control issues which thereby increasingly limits supporters of gun rights. And that's how the NRA came up here. Unfortunately the WWP will lose the support of pro-gun zealots who aren't committed to objectivity very much, but the WWP has factored that in to their decisions which is where "COI" comes in.
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Old November 23, 2012, 04:07 PM   #78
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We can all put an individual spin on WWP's stand on firearms. I don't see them as anti just non-commital. Donate your money where you choose. Until someone shows me that an inordinate amount of the donations goes for administrative costs I will continue to support WWP.
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Old November 23, 2012, 04:09 PM   #79
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I can't see how specifically excluding items is "wishing to be left out... of the debate."

If they wanted to be left out of the debate, they wouldn't have inserted themselves into it.

They also chose to include a product in with clearly morality based choices, sex companies, religious organizations and guns.

Taken with the refusal to agree, even in theory, that they would accept co-branding if the gun company completely covered ALL costs and I can't see how it could not be seen as Anti. Their (supposedly) only objection is nullified and they still can't answer the question?

Add in the nonsense in the original email, that frankly looked like it could have been written by the Brady Campaign.

I see no where else to go with it.
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:29 PM   #80
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The hypocrisy of the WWP position is beyond comprehension. They won't have anything to do with firearms companies ... but they'll take their money.

I'm a veteran ... and I have just determined that I cannot support the WWP. There are other groups through which I can support my comrades in arms.
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:42 PM   #81
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Quote:
I've read all of what's posted here and all of the included links, and it seems to me that the WWP is considered to be "anti" only because they refuse to say they are "pro" by "co-branding" and allowing the use of their logo on weapons for sale. They haven't said anything that aligns them with the Brady Bunch, or Handgun Control, or endorsed any anti-gun legislation, or tried to limit CC rights, or anything else that would legitimately earn them the label of "anti". Any objective look at this says that they wish to be left out of the pro-anti gun debate, since their mission requires no interest in its results either way.
I to have been following this thread . I'm not sure if I completely agree with you or just want to agree .

Quote:
I can't see how specifically excluding items is "wishing to be left out... of the debate."

If they wanted to be left out of the debate, they wouldn't have inserted themselves into it.

They also chose to include a product in with clearly morality based choices, sex companies, religious organizations and guns.
I do know that I do agree with this .

Both of you are making compelling arguments however I believe there official written policy trumps there interview hearsay . I personally don't like when they put the sex industry and religion in the same class of products as guns .
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Old November 23, 2012, 05:46 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWP
In the past, we made our logo available to appear on wide variety of products, including guns. As an organization, we owe it to our donors and constituents to maximize the return on investment of our dollars and brand. We are always looking at our business practices and whether we should
continue with them in the future. In the case of cobranding, we've decided that we're not going to offer our logo to appear on weapons anymore - whether they're guns, knives, bows, swords, or any other type of weapon. There are still a few of the guns around for sale that had licensed our logo years ago, but there aren't any new ones being made. This is purely a business decision based on a review of a return on investment, especially when compared with other types of cobranding ventures.
What's all this talk about "co-branding" and return-on-investment? This is [supposed to be] a non-profit organization, a charity. If the MegaBlaster gun company wants to put out a Wounded Warrior model and offers to donate 'X' percentage of the proceeds to the WWP, where exactly is there any "investment" on the part of the WWP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Billy
I've read all of what's posted here and all of the included links, and it seems to me that the WWP is considered to be "anti" only because they refuse to say they are "pro" by "co-branding" and allowing the use of their logo on weapons for sale.
No, their hypocrisy is showing through very clearly. Now they claim their opposition to firearms companies is due to co-branding. Initially, they claimed it was because wounded warriors were wounded by ... guns. And yet the same group who claims that associating with gun-makers might contribute in some way to warrior suicides doesn't have a problem sending those same warriors out on hunting trips, with loaded guns in their hands.

Don't you find that to be at least a tiny bit self-contradictory?

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Old November 23, 2012, 06:15 PM   #83
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"Specifically excluding items" (logos) of participants, that is, not branding with one of the participants in the debate is how they "wish to be left out of the debate". It's that simple.

They inserted themselves in the debate by co-branding, and wished to remove themselves from the debate by not co-branding anymore. How simple can it be?

Sex, guns and religion are hot topic issues that people have passion about and are clearly divided on. Taking on a visibility in those turbid roiling debates when none of them have anything at all to do with their mission is what motivates WWP to eschew any presence therein. Sex, religion and guns are issues that have nada to do with WWP's mission so they chose to be distant from them. How simple is that? Are they against sex? Religion? Or is it that WWP has no part of who it is and what it does being dependent on them and so finds no sensible reason to take a role in them?

If WWP lets its logo appear on a "Wounded Warrior" model of an assault rifle (where it would have the most commercial success, probably), and that causes an anti-gun or anti-assault weapon reaction from a lot of donors actual and potential who withdraw their donations on principle (wouldn't be much of a surprise if it had that effect) then whatever MegaBlaster paid them might not be a net gain for WWP. In short, the money MegaBlaster pays for the WWP logo on their rifle (the investment) might not be enough to cover the loss of donations that it results in (the cost of the investment).

Their opposition to firearms companies is only that they don't want to advertise with them, they don't want to have WWP officially associated with the arms industry. They have said NOTHING that goes any further than that, that shows they are against firearms companies. The firearms industry has no significance whatever in WWP's mission, so why does it need to be a part of WWV's identity? Truth is, it doesn't, and if that puts panties in knots, oh well.
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Old November 23, 2012, 07:41 PM   #84
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A neutral position would accept all parties.

Don't want to take a position on religion? You accept advertising from Muslim, Baptist, Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic, Satanist, etc.

Alcohol? You accept advertising from Budweiser and Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Guns? Advertising from Ruger and the Brady Campaign.

THAT is "not taking a position".

Accept advertising from atheists and not Baptists? The Brady Bunch and not Remington?

That's not neutral.
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Old November 23, 2012, 08:58 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Billy
"Specifically excluding items" (logos) of participants, that is, not branding with one of the participants in the debate is how they "wish to be left out of the debate". It's that simple.

They inserted themselves in the debate by co-branding, and wished to remove themselves from the debate by not co-branding anymore. How simple can it be?
Well, it WOULD be that simple ... if it were that simple. But it isn't.

Because they didn't say they didn't want to co-brand with firearms companies to stay out of the debate. They said they don't want to co-brand with firearms companies because they don't get enough return on investment. How much "investment" can there possibly be in firing off an e-mail saying, "Sure, you have permission to use our logo on your MegaBlaster WWP model, in return for [__] percent of the proceeds from sales thereof. A copy of the artwork is attached for your use. Thanks for your support."

They don't get enough "return" to cover THAT?

Bee Ess.
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Old November 23, 2012, 10:11 PM   #86
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I will continue to donate to the NRA and WWP. 'Nuf said.
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Old November 24, 2012, 12:34 AM   #87
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A neutral position requires all parties to an issue to participate, or no parties to the issue participate. Which of these is the most practical and realistic way to remain neutral?

What if only one party to an issue wants to buy advertising or co-brand? Do you give their opposition free access?

Did the WWP take advertising or co-branding from the Brady Campaign, but refused Stevens Arms? If so, then they are "antis" and not neutral. Or did they refuse all reference to guns? That's what they said they were doing. If that's true, then they are neutral on guns. But of course that wouldn't be good enough, because "If you aren't with us, you're against us" no matter how dumb an idea that is.

How come this doesn't apply to any corporation that isn't co-branded with an organization in the arms industry? Why if you want to drive a Ford with a Colt emblem on the door, you'll have to put it there yourself because Ford won't; must be they're anti-guns. How come there isn't a Smith & Wesson emblem on my AAA card? Why doesn't that green lizard from Australia have a quick-draw rig on to show he and his insurance company are pro-gun? Must be they're anti gun, he isn't armed at all.
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Old November 24, 2012, 12:36 AM   #88
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If high-paid executives of donation-supported organizations are the cause of a heartburn, then don't look at what the NRA pays Wayne LaPierre, it'll give you ulcers.
Non sequitur.
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Old November 24, 2012, 01:42 AM   #89
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Quote:
A neutral position would accept all parties.
Perhaps, or they could reject all parties.

Is there a WWP/Brady Campaign brand? Has the WWP officially associated itself with any gun control organization?

I don't read any citations for that.
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Old November 24, 2012, 04:36 AM   #90
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Should I judge an organization on any other criterion than how well it accomplishes its primary mission?

If it is the only one of its kind that can accomplish that mission, perhaps not.

If it is not, then perhaps yes.

In any event, I donate my money to organizations as I see fit, and if I make that choice based on some other criterion - for instance, stances on private gun ownership - well, it's my money.
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Old November 24, 2012, 02:43 PM   #91
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I will not support any group that is antigun in any form. I deeply respect and support our troops (I am a veteran myself). I will support other pro-military groups but not WWP.
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Old November 24, 2012, 03:00 PM   #92
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Personally, I think we should respect their wishes not to be seen with us. It's just so much less awkward for the poor dears if we keep our money to ourselves, so as not to risk embarrassing them by being seen hanging out with us.

But that's an easy choice for me, since 100% of my income comes from gun related work. They don't want my money in any case.

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Old November 24, 2012, 03:19 PM   #93
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WWP's stance is anti gun, and more important, anti gun supporters. Their inclusion of guns and gun related companies in their list of places/things they don't 'support' speaks fairly clearly on this.

I have talked to them on the phone, and by letter. Never again will I support them with my contributions. There are other organizations that help wounded vets.
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Old November 24, 2012, 04:30 PM   #94
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Quote:
Brian Pfleuger wrote:

A neutral position would accept all parties.

Don't want to take a position on religion? You accept advertising from Muslim, Baptist, Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic, Satanist, etc.

Alcohol? You accept advertising from Budweiser and Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Guns? Advertising from Ruger and the Brady Campaign.

THAT is "not taking a position".

Accept advertising from atheists and not Baptists? The Brady Bunch and not Remington?

That's not neutral.
Now that is the clearest and most succinct train of thought regarding this whole controversy I have read yet.
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Old November 24, 2012, 06:57 PM   #95
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WWP helps wounded vets. It's an organization like any other that doesn't and won't take gun-related associations (ask the American Cancer Society or the United Way if they will put a gun-related logo, pro or con, on any of their communications), which I wholeheartedly support.

They have expressed nothing that I take to mean they are against me as a gun supporter, they wish to connect with me on another issue which is the entire point of their mission: helping wounded veterans, and that's fine with me. They and I share that issue while we don't share a serious interest in guns; that's me and not them.

IMHO, for an organization to be branded as anti-gun, they have to do more than demonstrate no interest in guns, they need to turn on us with more negative intent than just not joining us. WWP hasn't done that. Like most if not all of the businesses, charities and organizations I am involved with haven't mentioned guns either.

If I see an anti-gun connection on an organization, then I'm gone, but no gun connection of any sort is okay with me. They don't have to like pepperoni on their pizza either, to mention another opinion that has virtually no bearing on whether we connect or we don't.

YMMV
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Old November 24, 2012, 07:07 PM   #96
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Brian Pfleuger wrote:

A neutral position would accept all parties.

Don't want to take a position on religion? You accept advertising from Muslim, Baptist, Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic, Satanist, etc.

Alcohol? You accept advertising from Budweiser and Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Guns? Advertising from Ruger and the Brady Campaign.

THAT is "not taking a position".


I disagree, that's taking ALL positions, and that's silly.
If one doesn't want to say anything that constitutes a position, the most sensible and economic way to do so is to say nothing at all. That's what WWV is trying to do. But since the WWV is on everyone's chyt list here, there is nothing they can say and no reasoned analysis of the situation that will convince anyone otherwise.

Along with "If you aren't with me then you're against me" comes "Don't try reason and objectivity to change my mind, it's been made up without them and will remain so, it's immune to them".
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Old November 24, 2012, 09:04 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Billy
If one doesn't want to say anything that constitutes a position, the most sensible and economic way to do so is to say nothing at all.

Indeed, and that's exactly my point. I never said you'd have to explicitly say you're accepting donations from every group, you just DO. Being neutral means keeping your mouth shut.

That's the definition of "neutral".

You are arguing the exact opposite, that specifically excluding certain groups is somehow neutral.

Taking donations from any group is not "taking all positions", it is taking NO positions.

Their statement says:

WWP does not co-brand, create cause marketing campaigns or receive a percentage or a portion of proceeds from companies in which the product or message is sexual, political or religious in nature, or from alcohol or firearms companies.

By your own words, that is NOT neutral!

My mind is quite open, thank you. Until this blow up, I frequently mentioned, recommended and commended the WWP. Unfortunately, it is clear that I should have looked further than their commercials.
Simply converting to your opinion is not the definition of open minded. Being open minded means being open to considering all the facts. Once those facts are considered and a choice has been made it's not time to be "open minded" anymore, it's time to make a decision.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:27 PM   #98
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Peetza said: "Indeed, and that's exactly my point. I never said you'd have to explicitly say you're accepting donations from every group, you just DO. Being neutral means keeping your mouth shut."

That requires every participant in a debate to ask to be accepted, and if only one side asks and gets accepted, then you've pinned yourself to their premise even though your intent was to appear to be not taking a side.

"You are arguing the exact opposite, that specifically excluding certain groups is somehow neutral."

'Certain groups' includes the group of all the sides of the gun debate, "guns" being the group. In the case of the WWP since they've never aligned themselves with anti-gun organizations like the Brady Bunch it's reasonable to conclude that they aren't anti-gun either.

"Taking donations from any group is not "taking all positions", it is taking NO positions."

Taking donations from all groups is not the only way to take no position. Taking donations from NO groups has the same effect. But taking NO donations from anyone in a group is the most expedient and practical and the easiest to effect. If rejection is the heartburn here, then Maalox and not argument is the answer.

"WWP does not co-brand, create cause marketing campaigns or receive a percentage or a portion of proceeds from companies in which the product or message is sexual, political or religious in nature, or from alcohol or firearms companies.
By your own words, that is NOT neutral!"


Yes it is. As regards guns, they take no proceeds from any side of the gun debate, not pro or anti as has been said here about a million times, and that makes them neutral as regards guns. What would you have them do that's reasonable that would convince you that they were neutral about guns? Or is being neutral the same as being anti to you?

My mind is quite open, thank you. ..... Once those facts are considered and a choice has been made it's not time to be "open minded" anymore

'Open minded' is not time- or event-dependent, it requires hanging to that all the time. Keeping one's mind open to new info, to new arguments, to a different look at an issue and not clinging to a conclusion when it's been shown to be flawed is called "critical thinking".
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Old November 24, 2012, 11:13 PM   #99
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There's no new info.

They exclude firearms companies. They do not exclude anti-gun companies. That is not neutral.

If I exclude no one, I am neutral. If I exclude women and not men, I am not neutral.

It doesn't matter how many ways you can say it.

If you can choose A and B and you choose both or neither, you are neutral. If you exclude one and not the other, you are not neutral.

That's logic. Exclusion of one party over another is not neutral.

neu·tral
/ˈn(y)o͞otrəl/
Adjective
Not helping or supporting either of two opposing sides, esp. countries at war; impartial.
Noun
An impartial and uninvolved country or person.
Synonyms
neuter - indifferent - impartial

Notice how there's no mention that excluding (or accepting) one party and not another is "neutral". It's actually the exact OPPOSITE of neutral.


Quote:
As regards guns, they take no proceeds from any side of the gun debate, not pro or anti as has been said here about a million times, and that makes them neutral as regards guns. What would you have them do that's reasonable that would convince you that they were neutral about guns? Or is being neutral the same as being anti to you?
You are inserting intent in their words where there is none. There is NO MENTION of anti-gun companies. The Brady Bunch is not a "firearms company". That's just silly.

It's obvious what they should do. If they want to be neutral, they accept donations from gun companies AND anti-gun companies.

They don't exclude both. They don't accept both. Either of those choices would be neutral. Excluding one without the other is the exact OPPOSITE of neutral.

I have nothing more to say on the matter. There's no winning an argument about neutrality when the plain sense definition of the word is in question.

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Old November 24, 2012, 11:34 PM   #100
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