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Old November 22, 2012, 05:49 AM   #1
Metal god
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Calling your shot ? need better understanding

Calling your shot continued from closed hi-jacked thread .

Is calling your shot seeing where the crosshairs are on the target at the moment the gun is fired and then with out looking at the target again guessing and or knowing where the bullet hit ?

If so how does this help your shooting ?

If this is not what calling your shot means . What does it mean and what is the benefit and or why do it ?

Art and all staff at TFL . It's OK if this thread gets a little of topic please do not close it for that reason . If it strays to far off topic I'll try to get it back on track my self .

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Old November 22, 2012, 06:36 AM   #2
Bart B.
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Quote:
Is calling your shot seeing where the crosshairs are on the target at the moment the gun is fired and then with out looking at the target again guessing and or knowing where the bullet hit ?

If so how does this help your shooting ?
Yes. It lets you see how much in what direction to adjust your sight so bullets hit where the rifle is aimed when fired.

How well you aim the firearm at your target can then be best seen.
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Old November 22, 2012, 07:25 AM   #3
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There are several ways to call a shot. The first way is part of follow-thru, to be visually aware of where your sights were when the trigger broke. If, for example, you are shooting and when the trigger breaks, you know that your sights were a little high and left of the target. So, you tell your buddy "I pulled that one, it will be high and left." When he looks through the scope, he sees a shot high and left.

Another way is to call the shot before you pull the trigger. Several years ago, a bunch of us were plinking on a pipeline right-of-way. About 200 yards out, I spotted a surveyor's stake and lined up on it. My buddy asked what I was shooting at. "See that surveyors stake, about 200 yards out? I'm going to put the bullet center of the stake, 4" from the top." Sure enough, I put the bullet where I called it.

How does this help your shooting? In the first example, knowing your sight picture intimately when the trigger breaks is certainly an aid to good shooting. Being able to tell a spotter where the bullet went is a tremendous aid to self-diagnosis of problems. If you know you pulled the shot, then you can know how to fix it.

In the second example, it's just bragging. But, it ain't bragging if you can actually do it.
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:07 AM   #4
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I think it also helps instill the discipline of follow through. If you consciously decide to hold your position long enough to remember the shot, instead of trying to get out of position as soon as possible, your follow through will be more consistent. This is something that has helped me in my small bore prone. I get the best sight picture, pull the trigger, and let the sights settle back on target and I compare pre shot alignment with post shot. This helps keep down the twitching and pulling that are probably going on as I pull the trigger.
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Old November 22, 2012, 11:32 AM   #5
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When I fire a rifle, I never blink, so if I've moved off-center, I can usually tell. That's especially useful when shooting offhand at targets. When shooting game with a rifle, I don't shoot unless I feel at least a 95% chance of hitting a quick-kill zone.

Many novices blink at each shot fired, especially with higher-recoiling guns. I suspect they're jerking the trigger, because they seem to know when the gun is going to fire and often blink a millisecond before the gun fires.

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Old November 22, 2012, 11:36 AM   #6
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You gotta see the muzzle blast when the round fires. If you don't, that shot cannot be called accurately. With semi autos you must also see the empty case eject.
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Old November 22, 2012, 11:57 AM   #7
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In a nutshell its saying where exactly you think the bullet went. This means that you need to be eye(s) open at the moment of discharge. Many shooters blink & so never actually "see" the actual shot.

Can it be used to see if your sights are "off"? Yes sure when you're sigting in or zeroing, but it goes beyond that & should be practiced even if your sight is 100% dead nutz on zero.

It trains you to see those miniscule things that spoil shot placment like blinking, jerking the trigger, touching & moving the stock as the trigger is pulled, flinching & so on. It will help your shooting because it forces you to see things you might otherwise miss & so never know to correct.

There are several ways to make the call, but I use either the "Clock, ring & distance" (10 O'clock: Inner: 2 inches) or the "Up & over" (2 inches high: 3/4 inch left) method as It seems to be clearer than any other technique I've tried.

Its best if you learn the technique with a spotter using a scope. You call the shot & he confirms, or corrects the call, so you get a feel for where the actual stike went & how it got there.
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Old November 22, 2012, 12:31 PM   #8
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"You gotta see the muzzle blast when the round fires. If you don't, that shot cannot be called accurately. With semi autos you must also see the empty case eject. "

Bart - I know you know what you are talking about , but ...

I don't think I have ever seen muzzle blast when shooting service rifle. Now, we have all seen muzzle flash when shooting in the dark...

And what info does the ejecting case tell you? If my best M14 doesn't put the empties in a small group, I would expect those out of the group to be possible "flyers" on target. My ar always puts them in a nice pile. But I never look at the flying cases in real time. How many eyeballs do you have, anyway??

Calling the Shot: while lining up the shot and starting to apply pressure, the sights are obviously on target. But just as the trigger breaks, where are they pointing? That is calling the shot. With a 4.5 lbs trigger, it is not hard to move just a smidge as you are pulling.
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Old November 22, 2012, 06:42 PM   #9
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Calling your shot is using what you know of your position, respiriatory cycle and trigger squeeze to "know" whether you pulled a shot or not. The "art" of shot calling is knowing where the bullet went prior to spotting it. If you know yourself well enough to know what clock direction you missed in, or if it was dead center prior to seeing your shot spotter, calling each shot (typically done on a mock target in your data book) prior to seeing each shot spotter will give you an accurate gauge as to whether your sights are off that day or if you are off that day.
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Old November 22, 2012, 07:09 PM   #10
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Calling your shot helps with follow through among other things.

If you are honest with your shot calls, you can check your zeros, you can check your wind calls. Basicly you can check your shooting in general.

Every shot should be called and recorded. If you'll look at a Score or Data book you'll see places to record you calls and another place to record your hits. All you have to do is compare them.

Not just shooting, but dry firing. One needs to call and plot his dry fire hammer falls.

Dry firing helps with one's fundamentals, of which, shot calling is a fundamental.

But you have to be honest with yourself. I've see a lot of new shooters, and older shooters, call "good" every time they drop the hammer. That accomplishes NOTHING.

When I coached the AK NG Rfle team, I wouldn't even tell my shooters their hit value. With the exception of some of my better shooters I wouldn't let my shooter take a spotting scope to the line. I'd give them corrections on wind or what ever, that would give me their calls, I'd plot the calls and hits.

It the calls are constant, and the shots or off, I can give them a correction. If they know where the shot hits, all to often they'd call it there.

Calling shots is important if one wants to correct his shooting errors.
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:19 PM   #11
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For myself,concentrating on seeing where the sights were as the rifle recoils is the most powerful tool I have to prevent closing my eyes before I shoot.

Flipside,if I lose focus and do not call my shots,I will throw shots.Or,if I did not see the sights as the rifle recoils,there is a reason,my eyes were likely closed.

Thats the big step one.I shoot worse than normal with my eyes closed.

When I place calling the shot in my mind as I look through the sights at the target,it brings a focus...an awareness..of the fundamentals.

If you are calling the shot,you will also call up trigger control,breathing,natural point of aim,etc.
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Old November 22, 2012, 08:43 PM   #12
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Great stuff guys thanks , I can tell by what you all are saying that this is going to help alot .I can't wait to try all this out . I'm not sure if I close my eyes or even blink . Im sure I do just never paid attention to it before . I assume you do this no matter what your shooting 22lr or a 300 win mag ? It should all work the same yes ?

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Old November 22, 2012, 09:30 PM   #13
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I need to get me some dummy rounds to dry fire on and see if I blink or anything.

Good thread idea and good info within.
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Old November 23, 2012, 08:08 AM   #14
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A dumy round (looks full but has no powder or propellant) randomly inserted in your ammo box or magazine is a great aid to flinch detection.
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Old November 23, 2012, 09:20 AM   #15
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I echo Wogpottor's comment about having someone insert dummy rounds randomly in the magazine (or chamber) while you're shooting live ammo. It's really the best way to detect what you might be doing wrong.

We've used that tactic when training handgun shooters and it's especially useful for the instructor to see what the trainee might be doing wrong.
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Old November 23, 2012, 09:37 AM   #16
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Prior to going to Camp Perry, we'd shoot several strings of offhand, blind. Blind meaning that you'd call and plot each shot fired, but the targets weren't scored or looked at. At the end of the 10rd string, we'd hike down and look at the target and compare it to the plot. This was a way of fine tuning zero's and shot calling.
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Old November 23, 2012, 01:20 PM   #17
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An old military training phrase for marksmanship was/is called "ball and dummy." It involves mixing dummy rounds with live ones. Used to train folks to call their shots, squeeze that 4.5 pound trigger properly and not move at all after firing until after you and the rifle's stopped moving from recoil. That means keep your trigger finger pulled back against its stop until you've stopped moving. Don't flick your trigger finger forward the instant you subconciously feel the sear break and release the hammer or firing pin.

I once had this happen to me in a 1000 yard match when I was using handloads with Sierra 190's supplied by the marksmanship unit. Probably the most accurate long range loads ever used in 7.62 NATO Garands. But it was not for training; it was for real that time in 1970.

First sighter, called a deep V at 3 o'clock. V ring was 20 inches in diameter. Target went down then came up with the spotter at 1 o'clock in the 36 inch 5 ring. Came down 1 MOA in elevation. Loaded my next sighter round.

Second sigher, called center. Target came up with a shallow V at 9 o'clock. Came one click (1/2 minute) right. Loaded my first record shot. Then made a 1 MOA change for the wind. The wind was a bit shifty and needed constant vigilance.

First record shot. Rifle went click. Round didn't fire. But I called it a V at 6 o'clock. Ejected the round, bulet was still intact, looked at my scorekeeper who just shrugged his shoulders. Loaded another round.

First record shot, second try. That one fired and was called a V at 4 o'clock. Target came up with a V at 3. No change.

To make a long story short, I had to load 42 rounds to get 20 that fired for record shots. Ended up with a 98-17V score on that old military C target and won the service rifle division placing 3rd overall against the magnum bolt guns. Lost two points from missing wind changes while on the gun aiming.

Weighed the rounds that went click; all were about 44 grains lighter than some of the others I had from that batch. The charge of IMR4320 was 44 grains. No wonder there was no powder in them as noted after I pulled their bullets. I still think the man in the unit's loading room was in cahouts with the other team members to pull a fast one on me.

Last edited by Bart B.; November 23, 2012 at 07:17 PM.
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Old November 23, 2012, 02:12 PM   #18
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Lot of meaning to calling your shot here one

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2010/...ips_shot_1125/

Here is something else

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/USAMU2/usamu2.html
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Old November 23, 2012, 06:23 PM   #19
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Dave asks:
Quote:
I don't think I have ever seen muzzle blast when shooting service rifle. Now, we have all seen muzzle flash when shooting in the dark...

And what info does the ejecting case tell you? If my best M14 doesn't put the empties in a small group, I would expect those out of the group to be possible "flyers" on target. My ar always puts them in a nice pile. But I never look at the flying cases in real time. How many eyeballs do you have, anyway??
With service rifles, I see the muzzle flash as a distortion of the target caused by muzzle blast. It's visible around the front sight as its seen through the rear sight aperture.

Ejected cases from the 7.62 NATO Garands I've shot are visible in the upper right part of my field of view around the rear sight hood on Nat'l Match rear sights. However, only when the ejector spring's "tuned" to make the empties eject out between 1 and 2 o'clock relative to the sight line; the target's at 12 o'clock. Often with new ejector springs, the empy 7.62 NATO cases get flipped back over the bolt and go just above the rear sight and under the bill of your ball cap. The come to rest on the bridge of your shooting glasses frying themselved into your skin above your aiming eye. I don't like that. And others will bounce off the shooter to your right; they don't like that.

I've tuned many a Garand ejector spring; 12 in one day. Took 12 of them I'd checked out for a major command's rifle team out to a local military range with a few boxes of M118 match ammo. Load a clip full, then hold the rifle waist high and normal and fire 2 shots. Watch where the empties eject. If they don't fly out between 1 to 2 o'clock, unload the rifle, use a combination tool to remove the extractor and ejector and its spring. Use a diagonol cutter to remove half a turn of the ejector spring. Reassemble every thing, load then shoot two more rounds. Repeat until the empies go forward and to the right. Grab the next rifle and do it again.

I don't know about AR's built on M16 style of actions. They may well respond in kind to the same ejector spring shortening. M14's and M1A's do as their system's the same as M1's.
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Old November 24, 2012, 09:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
M14's and M1A's do as their system's the same as M1's.
The spring surrounding part of the OpRod may be, but there are major differences between the gas system of the two.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:40 AM   #21
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You shoot enough and it is like any other physical skill. You know when you made a mistake. Even a good high school basketball player has a pretty good idea of the results when he/she releases a shot, whether it be a brick, bank, or "nothing but net." When I played golf I usually knew where the ball was going, at least where it would first hit the ground, before I picked it up in flight.

When I pull a trigger I know if I did something outside the norm and in most cases I know what that abnormality will result in, especially for rifles. Maybe someday I will get to the place where I forget what a bad shot feels like, but, at current, I have plenty of reminders.

IF someone is helping you with corrections you also have to communicate known human error so they aren't giving you sighting corrections to compensate for one time human errors.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:44 AM   #22
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Wogpotter my comparison between M1 and M14/M1A ejector springs has nothing to do with their gas system. It's the case extraction and ejection system I referred to. After the bolt's opened enough to let the fired case mouth clear the breech, their functions are identical.
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