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Old October 3, 2011, 01:31 PM   #1
MrWesson
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Why no .357 sig rifle/carbines?

I think a .357 sig carbine would work great for our troops for urban situations but dont really have any data to back that up(couldn't find ballistic info on .357 sig rifles).

I think it would be flatter shooting and more effective than .40.

Its also a market that is untouched by other makers(maybe for a reason)..

I might not buy one because I reload and .357 sig is annoying to load(bottlenecked).

What are your thoughts?
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Old October 3, 2011, 01:40 PM   #2
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Pretty simple. There is already a standardized NATO pistol cartridge, and it's not now and never will be. 357 Sig. With all due respect, bottlenecked pistol cartridges are generally a bad idea, and the. 357 Sig is no exception.
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Old October 3, 2011, 01:40 PM   #3
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http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

That may be a bit enlightening. With a longer barrel, you do pick up additional energy from the extra velocity, but the 357Sig doesn't get any more benefit from being fired in a carbine than the standard service calibers. The energy graph goes a bit higher than others simply because it is a higher-velocity pistol round and velocity is a key figure in energy. If you created a momentum graph, it would probably be about the same as a 40 S&W.

I think there is probably nothing wrong with your suggestion, but I don't believe that it would really make that much of a difference either way. A full-auto burst of 147gr. or 124gr. 9mm bullets is going to be just as damaging from a practical standpoint as the same burst with 357 Sig... it would just cost 50% less. Unless a LEA is going to purchase sidearms in 357 Sig, which I think is unlikely most places, it doesn't make sense to have carbines and subguns that use the cartridge.
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Old October 3, 2011, 01:42 PM   #4
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Personally, if I'm going to haul around something the size, shape, and weight of a rifle, I'd rather it be more than just an oversized handgun.

The .357 Sig might make a decent round for a subgun (better penetration, bottleneck means it feeds really well), for civilian purposes, the NFA limitations end up working against pistol caliber carbines. For reloading, I imagine the .357 Sig might be no easier to do than .223/5.56 (I only reload shotshell and straight walled pistol rounds right now, so somebody might be able to correct me on this one), so again, there isn't much benefit.
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Old October 3, 2011, 03:54 PM   #5
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With all due respect, bottlenecked pistol cartridges are generally a bad idea, and the. 357 Sig is no exception.
Why is that?

Being bottlenecked, it only aids in the reliability of cycling the ammo...
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Old October 3, 2011, 04:50 PM   #6
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Several reasons why there are no carbines or rifles for 357 SIG.
* Non-standard head size. May or may not be an issue depending on the platform design, but most current rifles use one of just a few head sizes for ease of manufacturing. Sure, because of its design and its separate bolt head, an AR could be made in 357 SIG, but would people buy it?

* Lots of people oooh and aaah about carbines for 9mm and 40 S&W, but few pull out their wallets.

* For the same amount of weight as an AR chambered for 357 SIG, you can have a 223. And the magazine will hold 30 rounds instead of 25 or so rounds.

* Since 357 SIG is kind of a specialty pistol cartridge, ammo costs are not in line with 9X19mm, so people will be hesitant to buy it because of the higher cost of ammo.

But there's hope! If you just gotta have it, you could easily have an AR15 set up for 357 SIG and have a companion to your sidearm. Wouldn't cost too terribly much more than a standard AR15.
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Old October 3, 2011, 08:18 PM   #7
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Simple...

Any carbine chambered for a pistol cartridge is arguably just an oversize pistol...You carry a small rifle that can't defeat body armor, or reach out too far. Couple that with a dying, expensive cartridge and it's no wonder there aren't any in .357 Sig, Sorry
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Old October 3, 2011, 08:50 PM   #8
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frankly, the 10mm makes more sense than a .357 Sig in a carbine. H&K thought so too.
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Old October 3, 2011, 09:04 PM   #9
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IMO, most people who buy carbines are interested in either shooting targets/plinking without the recoil and expense of a large rifle. You don't need a near-specialty pistol cartridge to get low recoil out of a long-gun, and you could easily shoot .223 for about the same price as .357 sig so there is not a price advantage.

For a real world use on living and reinforced targets, it might work pretty good for the intended purpose (although like Mannlicher stated, 10mm would probably be even better). But I suspect that there is not a justifiable market there anymore. Most police and militaries have gone away from the pistol caliber carbines/sub-guns to compact full power carbines. So the pistol caliber stuff out there now is basically just for range toys, and who wants a range toy that shoots expensive, not as common ammo?
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Old October 3, 2011, 09:06 PM   #10
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frankly, the 10mm makes more sense than a .357 Sig in a carbine.
9x25 Dillon?

Then again, at some point you should just go to a rifle cartridge
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Old October 3, 2011, 09:25 PM   #11
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Lots of speculation, but there is only one REAL reason for no .357 sig rifles: PCC's are all blowback and it's difficult to safely time a blowback action for such a high pressure cartridge. MAP for .357 sig is 40,000 PSI, higher than even the 10mm Auto.

Quote:
Any carbine chambered for a pistol cartridge is arguably just an oversize pistol...You carry a small rifle that can't defeat body armor, or reach out too far.
Not too many pistols out there have the 100-150 yard effective range a PCC does. As a civilian, most people are not going to want or need to shoot further than that so they decide to go for the many advantages that PCC's have.

1. Straight wall pistol cartridges are easy to reload with carbide dies and the brass lasts almost forever.
2. PCC's easily handle cast or plated bullets. I never did, but several local reloaders made some good coin selling their cast reloads during 2008.
3. During the 2008 shortage, pistol ammo was much more available than rifle. Your .223 or 7.62 rifle doesn't do much good when you've got no ammo.
4. Ammo interchangeability with ones handgun. Not everyone owns 7 dozen guns and ammo for all of them. A PCC fills a gap between the 22 rimfire and the deer rifle while not requiring another caliber be stocked.

Quote:
* Lots of people oooh and aaah about carbines for 9mm and 40 S&W, but few pull out their wallets.
Hi-Point sells their 9mm, 40S&W, and 45 ACP carbines as fast as they can make them. There is a strong market, you just have to be able to keep it in the price range.
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Old October 3, 2011, 10:23 PM   #12
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As I understand it, most pistol cartridges do not really benefit much from the longer carbine barrel compared to a full-size (5") pistol barrel. One of the exceptions to this rule is the .357 magnum; velocities are significantly higher from a carbine than from a revolver.

I owned a Marlin Camp 9 for a while. It was a nice little gun, but I decided that I'd rather just have a .22 for plinking/range use.

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Old October 3, 2011, 10:35 PM   #13
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MPD61: If 357 Sig is dying why did the Secret Service adopt it as well as other L.E. Agencies?
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Old October 3, 2011, 11:40 PM   #14
MrWesson
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As I understand it, most pistol cartridges do not really benefit much from the longer carbine barrel compared to a full-size (5") pistol barrel. One of the exceptions to this rule is the .357 magnum; velocities are significantly higher from a carbine than from a revolver.

I owned a Marlin Camp 9 for a while. It was a nice little gun, but I decided that I'd rather just have a .22 for plinking/range use.

TMann
Slightly true with fast commercial ammo but not the case with handloads.

I have got 124gr 9mm bullet to 1650fps using blue dot and a 90gr bullet to 2090fps...

Can anyone explain to me why a .357 mag gains considerable FPS but not .357 sig?

I also know that the .357 sig is bottlenecked but do you know of a handgun caliber that shoots flatter and faster besides 5.7 and tokarev?

Seems to me that its at least a untouched market.. whether it could be profitable.. who knows
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Old October 3, 2011, 11:47 PM   #15
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While I can not speak to a 357 sig rifle I can say that I love my 357 magnum rifles. I have 2 marlins and a G2 TC contender all are great guns.

I don't see an issue with making a 357 sig rifle... I think the primary problem is demand.

Quote:
I also know that the .357 sig is bottlenecked but do you know of a handgun caliber that shoots flatter and faster besides 5.7 and tokarev?
Id say a 357 magnum from one of the Magnum automatics.


Edited to add:

This web page shows you what you can expect from an 18inch and shorter rifle

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

they have most common hand gun calibers. They did this buy buying a T/C Encore 18 inch barrel and chopping it down 1 inch at a time so it should be very accurate.
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Old October 4, 2011, 09:49 AM   #16
MrWesson
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Id say a 357 magnum from one of the Magnum automatics.
That sounds interesting do you have any info on who makes a .357 auto(thought thats why they created .357 sig).
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Old October 4, 2011, 10:02 AM   #17
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Can anyone explain to me why a .357 mag gains considerable FPS but not .357 sig?
.357 mag can take advantage of greater amounts much slower burning powders.
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Old October 4, 2011, 12:58 PM   #18
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That sounds interesting do you have any info on who makes a .357 auto(thought thats why they created .357 sig).
Magnum Research makes the Desert Eagle in .357mag, .44mag, and .50AE. But then, the sheer size and weight of the thing really stretches the definition of "handgun."

The .357mag really is too long for easy inclusion into the grip frame of a semiauto intended for human hands. The rimmed case also adds a measure of difficulty to feeding. Hence the creation of the .357 SIG for use in more normally sized handguns.
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Old October 4, 2011, 04:28 PM   #19
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My understanding (FWIW) is that blowback actions cannot be used with cartridges more powerful than 380 ACP/9MM Makarov because you either need a recoil spring that is so strong most mortals cannot withdraw the slide or you need a slide/breechblock that is so heavy that you would have a 7 pound handgun. With a shoulder arm weight is not as much of a consideration. The Thompson originally had the Blish Lock, later models were straight blowback when it was found that was simpler to maufacture and just as effeicient. Other well know submachine guns-the Sten, the MP38/40, the M3/M3A1, the PPSh and PPS are all blowback actions. The Marlin Camp Carbines have blowback actions.
I have zero experience with the .357 SIG, it seems to be a "cult" cartridge, like the .41 Magnum-which I like. As such it has a devoted-but small-following. Try finding a Marlin M1894 in 41 Magnum.
Since the .357 Sig is a necked down 40 S&W a carbine using interchangeable barrels-like the SIG SHR-makes sense to me. However we all know what a best seller the SIG SHR 970 was.
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Old October 5, 2011, 01:26 PM   #20
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Nice titles!!!!

MPD61: If 357 Sig is dying why did the Secret Service adopt it as well as other L.E. Agencies?
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Armsmaster270, check back in five to ten years and compare .357 Sig sales of guns & ammo with today and the previous five years. The trend will continue to decline. Who cares why the SS adopted it? The FBI went with 10mm but that didn't last long did it?

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Old January 2, 2012, 09:14 PM   #21
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Why does the 357 mag gain velocity in a rifle but 357 sig does not?

Quote:
Can anyone explain to me why a .357 mag gains considerable FPS but not .357 sig?
I have a theory.

A 357 mag in a REVOLVER has a gap between the "wheel" and barrel. A bunch of hot gas is wasted blowing out the sides of the gun. A 357 sig has no gap.

So switching to a long gun not only stretches the barrel, it also eliminates the wheel and the wasted gas pressure.

Possibly, the increase for the 357 has little to do with the barrel length, and more to do with the elimination of the wheel gap.
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Old January 2, 2012, 09:22 PM   #22
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I think it would be a loser, and very few would want it. I would not even want a gift of one.
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Old January 2, 2012, 09:38 PM   #23
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Pretty simple. There is already a standardized NATO pistol cartridge, and it's not now and never will be. 357 Sig. With all due respect, bottlenecked pistol cartridges are generally a bad idea, and the. 357 Sig is no exception.

What about the 7.62x25? I love this hot pistol round. I've only shot it through my cz52. I have often wondered why there weren't other pistols that used this/or carbines. I think a modern day ppsh smg would be amazing. (shooting very hot rounds very fast) must have been a devastating gun to have been on the wrong side of...
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Old January 2, 2012, 09:38 PM   #24
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.357SIG from a Carbine would havemore of the weight and much of the capacity drawbacks inherent in the 7.62x51, without the power and penetration .......

Dumb idea.
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Old January 2, 2012, 09:46 PM   #25
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do you mean x25? I feel like you would be able to fit more 7.62x25 rounds in a mag than you would be able to for a (for example .40. This is all speculation though. I'm just fascinated by this round. it enamors me
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