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Old November 6, 2012, 09:31 AM   #1
jd3020
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Help with sighting in a scope

Hey guys I'm trying to get a scope sighted in for my dads savage 308 but I'm having some issues. First I started with a scope I removed from my 270. Mounted bore sighted took to my range and couldn't find it on paper at all. Even after extensive adjusting. Took it back home and installed a brand new bushnell banner 6-18x50 same thing that was on my 270. Installed bore sighted its on paper but at 100 yards it was about 6" left. So I adjusted and adjusted and finally ran out of adjustment and still so go. So it was back to Walmart with the scope to exchange for a new one. I haven't had a chance yet to sight this new one in but he is complaining about when he looks through the scope the cross hairs move all over the place. I told him this is normal until u find that certain spot. We shoot fairly the same as each other but is there something I'm doing wrong here. I just find it odd that I have went through 2 scopes. Any help or step by step would be nice. I don't think it's me because I have 15 rifles with scopes and I have sighted every single one in the same way but this one is just killing me in ammo
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Old November 6, 2012, 09:52 AM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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Crosshairs moving all over the place is probably parallax. You either need to set the adjustable objective to the correct yardage or realize that if the scope doesn't have an adjustable objective the parallax will only be perfect at one distance.

Also, if the scope isn't on the rifle in the spot where your father wants it, his eye won't be at the right distance and he'll never get a solid picture. Have him shoulder the rifle with the scope loose enough in the rings to slide and move it to where he wants it.

On the matter of adjustments, this should obviously be straight-forward. 6" off at 100 yards would be 24 clicks on a typical 1/4" adjustment scope. I have found, though, that low-end scopes do not typically adjust the actual amount that's listed. In other words, a click that should be 1/4 might be 1/8 or 3/8, even 1/2.

Using such scopes, I always do adjustments at half the number I expect until I get an idea of how far a click really moves it. It should be easy. If you need 24 clicks, do 12 and shoot again. If it moves more or less than you expected, figure out the true per click adjustment and go from there. Make sure you're shooting enough shots between adjustments so you can get a good average too. Making adjustments on one shot will have you chasing all day.
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Old November 6, 2012, 10:04 AM   #3
jd3020
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As far as adjustments go it says 1/4 at 100 yards. When I was 6" off I moved it 24 clicks and the next shots didn't move at all so I did another 24 with same result. Parallax adjustment I forgot about. However the scope does have and ao as well as an adjustable eye piece. The ao is set for 100 yards maybe a hair over since we are shooting 120 and the eyepiece is pulled out to focus a little better. I will loosen the scope tonight have him shoulder it and reset and bore sight it and see where that gets me.
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Old November 6, 2012, 10:07 AM   #4
geetarman
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Another cause of crosshair movement is not having the proper eye relief for the scope.

What Brian said is good advice. Mount the scope fairly loose so you can slide the tube forward or aft.

Mount the rifle and if the scope has a lot of dark around it, move your head back and forth until the view "blooms" and is clear all the way to the edge.

Move the scope forward or rearward to get that sight picture without having to hunt for it.

Then you can snug the scope up making sure the reticle is square.

Once you have the scope mounted solidly, then you can bore sight.
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Old November 6, 2012, 10:15 AM   #5
alex0535
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If you can keep the rifle pretty steady, you can get a pretty good idea of where the bore is pointed by removing the bolt. Look down the bore and find the target. Keep the rifle steady and move your eye upwards and see where the crosshairs are. Adjust scope accordingly. Just keep checking until where the bore is pointed seems to match the crosshairs. When they do, try a shot and make further adjustments.

I have used laser bore sighters and been way off, like farther off than I would have been doing this to get on paper from 50 yards.
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Old November 6, 2012, 10:35 AM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
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If making adjustments doesn't actually adjust anything, you have a stuck/broken scope.

The parallax setting on low-end optics is often unreliable. It may not be 100 yards just because the dial says so. Two things can sometimes be helpful, though I don't find either of them to work easily in all cases. One, try turning the objective until the scope gets blurry. Remember that setting. Now turn it the other way until it gets blurry. Let's say it gets blurry at 50 yards and 175 yards. The approximate correct setting for that yardage would be half way between those numbers, approximately 125 yards. Even if you're actually at 100 yards, the true parallax setting is closer to 125. The other way, is to set the parallax way off, say 250 yards if you're at 100, and look through the scope while adjusting the parallax and moving your head slightly. The whole idea of an adjustment in that it stops the reticle from moving about based on eye position. When the reticle stops moving, you are at the right setting, no matter what the number on the dial says.
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Old November 6, 2012, 12:35 PM   #7
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Beg or borrow a cleaning rack or shooting sled - something that will hold your rifle perfectly steady on the shooting bench. Take out the bolt and sight through the barrel at a basketball sized target 100 yds away. Center the target within the bore of the rifle. Now, without touching the rifle, look through the scope and see where the crosshairs are. Move the reticle adjustments until the crosshairs are just below the center of the target (you have to move them backwards from the markings on the scope - i.e. to move the reticle up use the direction for down).

If you cannot do that and get the crosshairs lined up under the actual view of the target as seen through the bore then you've got a bad scope.
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Old November 6, 2012, 12:59 PM   #8
Howzitbra
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This happened to my buddy on a new Browning X-Bolt. Turns out the holes for the mount were drilled out of square.
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Old November 6, 2012, 02:47 PM   #9
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Using such scopes, I always do adjustments at half the number I expect until I get an idea of how far a click really moves it. It should be easy. If you need 24 clicks, do 12 and shoot again. If it moves more or less than you expected, figure out the true per click adjustment and go from there. Make sure you're shooting enough shots between adjustments so you can get a good average too. Making adjustments on one shot will have you chasing all day.
from original post--

This just wastes a lot of ammo.

Are the adjustmant turrets on top and on the RIGHT. If not you will never get it adjusted.

I went with a friend couple weeks ago. He was having trouble and decided that there was 'something wrong with the scope'.
There was.. It was mounted 90 deg out of synch.

Rotated 90 deg clockwise and had it aligned ih about 4 shots.

I had read about that problem, gun mags/internet, but this was my first experience witnessing it.
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Old November 6, 2012, 06:10 PM   #10
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Alot of windage problems come from the rear ring not properly aligned. When I mount any scope I too remove the bolt and center my bore on an object 75 to 100 yds distant, and check the crosshairs, if there is a windage problem I adjust the rear ring.
The OP said he "boresighted" the scope after mounting it, and it still wasn't on paper, this tells me it wasn't properly "boresighted". good luck.
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Old November 6, 2012, 08:51 PM   #11
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by langenc
This just wastes a lot of ammo.
I've found the opposite to be true.

Making adjustments on one shot wastes a lot of ammo. We're not talking benchrest rifles here. A click is 1/4 MOA usually and a lot of guns might be shooting and inch, inch and a half.

In other words, any single shot might be 3 clicks from true group center.

It shouldn't take 30 shots to sight in the way I suggest.

3 shots, adjust. 3 shots, now you know the true adjustment amount from the first try, adjust accordingly, 3 shots to verify. You should be on center. 9 shots total.

I've watches guys waste 9 shots going back and forth making single shot adjustments, say nothing of the final group for verification.
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Old November 6, 2012, 09:53 PM   #12
jd3020
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I always shoot 3 group shots. I have with all my rifles weather it's a .17 all the way up to my ar-10. This is the first rifle I have ever had any problem finding it on paper. Now that being said the first scope i put on was off of my 270 and I had suspected problems with it. That being the reason i put a new Nikon on my 270. The second scope was mounted on my other 270 but I had accidentally done what an earlier poster mentioned and mounted it left and top instead of top and right turrets. Now I took the gun down to my father tonight and moved the scope fore and aft and tonight he says it all looks the same. I guess we will see tomorrow what happens when it's back on the lead sled.
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Old November 7, 2012, 07:55 AM   #13
jmr40
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Quote:
Making adjustments on one shot wastes a lot of ammo. We're not talking benchrest rifles here. A click is 1/4 MOA usually and a lot of guns might be shooting and inch, inch and a half.

This is not the case in my experiece. I generally have a rifle right where want it to be @100 yards on the 3rd shot.

I start at 50 yards and fire 1 shot. If I can look through the bore for the first shot and adjust before firing that is fine, even if I cannot such as with a lever action I just fire. Where the bullet hits does not matter. If I'm pretty close I adjust and fire shot #2 at 100 yards.

I cannot see wasting ammo with 3 shot groups yet. Even if I'm dealing with a 1.5 MOA rifle the 1st shot will be no more than 3/8" off true zero at 50 yards and no more than 3/4" off at 100 yards. All I'm trying to do at this point is put a hole in paper. If you can see through the barrel, such as with a bolt gun the 1st shot will be pretty close. The 1st shot fired from the last 3 scopes I zeroed last summer.

http://s1129.beta.photobucket.com/us...43910058479856


If you cannot sight through the barrel, just use a larger target. Poster board sells for $.28 at Walmart and you cannot miss something that big. Move in to 25 yards if necessary.

After my 1st shot at 50 and making adjustments I fire a 2nd shot at 100 yards and again make adjustments. I let the barrel cool for a few minutes then fire my 1st 3 shot group. 90% of the time no further adjustments are needed, at least until I back up to 200 yards or farther where I may need to fine tune things.
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Old November 7, 2012, 08:13 AM   #14
cecILL
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Hey JD, can you try a scope that you know is good? Maybe you got a couple of bad ones.
If not, possibly the rifle?
You can call me 2010.
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Old November 7, 2012, 07:29 PM   #15
kilotanker22
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brian

I agree with your method. Except I fire a three round group at 50 adjust and fire at 100. Fire again. Usually I am right where I want to be. Between 1 and 1.5 high at 100 will put you right close at 200 and with my 270 about 6 inches low at 300. Also I don't aim for the bullseye I aim for the sharp point above the bullseye makes for a more precise point of aim.
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:39 PM   #16
Mobuck
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The remark about the orientation of the turrets is totally incorrect. It makes no difference as long as the crosshairs are level with the axis of the rifle. Some optics(Aimpoint is one) have the direction of adjustment marked for both up/down and left/right so the scope can be mounted either way.
You may have overtightened the rings causing the tube to be tweeked. I use a lot of $100 and under scopes and always give the side of the tube or the rings a tap with a small nonmarring hammer or other tool after making adjustments.
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Old November 8, 2012, 07:10 AM   #17
jd3020
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i took the "new" scope back to walmart and exchanged for another one. When i took it off the gun i had noticed that it had a couple of little dents on the bottom of the tube. The scope fits in the rings fine but is it possiable that i have 1" rings and i need 30mm rings instead. The scope i exchanged for i installed and tightned up but i didnt go all out on it and crush it together. Dad shot it last night and was aiming at 12 targets 3 high and 4 wide. He set the cross hairs on the top left target and hit the bottom right target in the top left corner. He only shot 6 shots. 3 first and then adjusted a little but he said he couldnt see any change. With dst over its hard to get home from work before dark to sight in a rifle and i hate to do it on the opening day of deer season. He thinks in this case if your 3ft low and 4ft left adjustig a couple clicks will make it true. and i have tried to explain how 4 clicks is an inch at 100 yards. He also said why couldnt you aim for one target and adjust to where it hits at? Could this work? i have never tried that before. And when i bore sight i use my laser bore sighter and put it below the bulls eye 2" at 10 yards. Like i said i have never had a problem with this method but im starting to wonder now if i dont have a bad gun or even possiably a bad scope ring. Maybe its time to invest in a scope mounting tool to make sure everything lines up like it should. Does my rear scope ring need to be higher then the front like on my ruger? These are just questions i can think of after ruling out a bad scope. I just find it hard to believe that i have gotten 2 bad scopes.
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Old November 8, 2012, 07:40 AM   #18
robert
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i had this happen on a side mount
i could not get it to ajust on height
a guy told me to put a brass shim
under it it helped a lot you might
try this
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Old November 8, 2012, 07:42 AM   #19
hooligan1
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MObuck that is totally false dude, It matters how you orientate the scope that's why all of the high end scopes mark their turrets to correspond to this positioning.
I've experimented with just this idea and not once did the scope function correctly with the windage turrets in the verticle position. It just wouldn't work.
Now you did mention scopes less than 100.00 and they probably don't work correctly anyway, but yes tapping the turrets after adjustments seems to help low-end scopes.
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Old November 8, 2012, 08:15 PM   #20
jd3020
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Ok i extensively checked every bold and nut on this gun tonight. every thing is right all the rings are tight every thing is where it should be. Now my dad said it was low and to the right. When i got to my range to see where he was shooting at i found that it is about 8 inches to the right and about 8 inches low. Now my target is a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Tonight i put targets from side to side and well and top to bottom. there wasnt a piece of board left with out a target on it. This way if it hit some where i would see it. Ok i loaded my first 3 shots. Shot 1 not on paper. Now this was aiming at the top row center target. Nothing on paper. Shot 2 nothing on paper. I went to check and it looked like a bullet grazed the top of the plywood. So i adjusted down about a foot and picked the middle middle row of targets and the center target. shot 1 was about a foot high. shot 2 and 3 were about 8 inches high and 3-4 inches left. Any ways i kept on this adjusted and finally got to a group inside the 2nd circle of my target. But they were still sparatic. One would hit left one would hit right. I am shooting the same way every single time not doing any thing different. I adjust one more time and load 3 more in and boom Nothing on paper.What is the heck is going on with this gun. Is it the gun is it me is it the scope. I just dont know where to start. I thought i had it figured out and on track and then boom its out of kelter again. I have wasted 3 boxes of ammo on this thing. Im about ready to send it back to savage and tell them i want my money back.
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Old November 9, 2012, 08:52 AM   #21
Doyle
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I'm betting the reticles inside are just flopping around. That is not unusual on a cheap scope. Retire it and get something reliable.
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:01 PM   #22
jd3020
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Retire it? It's brand new and I paid 150 for it. Yes about half the price of my nikons but still. I lost the receipt so no hope of getting my money back
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Old November 10, 2012, 09:53 PM   #23
jd3020
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Think I figured it out. Once I took the scope off the screws holding the front sight have came loose and also the screws holding the stock on were loose as well
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:17 AM   #24
ChasingWhitetail91
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My .06 needed to be sighted in but being so close to season i didn't want to spook the deer by shooting. My dad has a friend with an in chamber bore sighter that he swears by. He claims you zero it in at fifty yards and your dead on up to 150 yards. Has anyone ever seen or used a boresighter that will live up to this claim or is it just talk. I had my .303 boresighted a couple years back, it was one that goes on the end, not in the chamber, and i wasn't even on paper so im a little skeptic.
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:35 AM   #25
Brian Pfleuger
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You absolutely, positively can not properly zero a rifle with any kind of bore sighter without shooting the gun afterwords.
Impossible. Can't be done. You can get close, as in 8x11 paper at 50 yards but not close enough for ethical hunting.
There is no option but shooting the gun.
Don't worry about spooking deer. Walk outside and listen ( if you're anywhere near country). Nobody else is concerned. They're scaring your deer already.
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