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Old November 13, 2012, 11:32 AM   #26
Mystro
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Your so easy,.....you took the bait. All kidding aside, since most LE agencies offer a greater variety of handguns and approved calibers than years back, I think you will see some of today's superior bullets in the 40s&w and 45acp be at the top of the one stop list. Bullet design is light years ahead of what it was only 15 years ago.

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Old November 13, 2012, 12:01 PM   #27
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125 gr.

why:
.357 has a fairly high sectional density, and a lot of power, it tends towards over-penetration.

125's higher velocity (greater bullet deformation, more reliable HP expansion) and lower sectional density, will transmit it's energy into the target more easily, which creates a more drastic wound (temporary, permanent, or otherwise). 158's are more likely to over-penetrate and thus waste kinetic energy.

Bullet design is also at issue here though. A 158 which has exceptionally well tuned controlled expansion properties, could perform very very well. It's just that in a caliber which has very dramatic penetration to begin with, the longer slower bullets have more of an uphill battle to fully utilize their energy in targets of limited thickness (zombies obviously).

In simplest terms, 125's are more likely to stay in the 12"-18" gelatin penetration range, and 158's are more likely to exceed 18" (wasting energy). in general, anyway.

Any deforming .357 round will do pretty horrendous damage though.
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Old November 13, 2012, 06:54 PM   #28
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Split the difference... Buffalo Bore 158gr Gold Dots at 1400 fps from a 3 inch GP100 ought to do the trick. Same velocity as most 125 grain loads but with a 158!

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=102

1. 3 inch S&W J frame
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps


2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps

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Old November 13, 2012, 06:59 PM   #29
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People quote those studies as if they were the word of God. Think about it, the difference between 357 mag 125gr and 9mm jhp one stop shot is about 4% on that list. How on Earth could you ever measure shootings that accurately? Margin of error for something as subjective as one stop shots surely has to be higher than 4%. I'd bet that the system is almost chaotic in nature. From a pure scientific point of view the study is bogus.
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Old November 13, 2012, 07:22 PM   #30
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If it is so good, and offered a clear advantage, wouldn't the FBI and LE still be using it???
Because most of us are civilians, not LE or FBI who want something that will shoot through windshields, car doors, etc. We civilians in an act of "self-defense", have no reason or need (or buisness) to be shooting through barriers...if there is a barrier between your "attacker" and you, one would be better off running away. LE and FBI do not have that option therefore, they adopted a cartridge that performs better at penetration of hard objects with less consideration on a "soft" target as a civilian would.
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Old November 13, 2012, 07:51 PM   #31
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I've always liked the idea of a heavy bullet driven at the fastest speed possible, so the 158Gr bullet is my choice for the best all around load for the .357 Magnum round.
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Old November 13, 2012, 08:14 PM   #32
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And the 9mm does that better than the 357mag?? The answere is obvious. LE wants a auto loader and not a wheel gun. They are easier to shoot faster, lighter to carry, absorb recoil better,and hold 3 times the amount of ammo. I would bet you could put a modern day 9mm bullet against the old 37mag for one stop shots and you could hardly measure the difference. With pistols, regardless of ANY caliber, its about multiple rounds on the target.

Quote:
Because most of us are civilians, not LE or FBI who want something that will shoot through windshields, car doors, etc
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Old November 13, 2012, 10:04 PM   #33
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Curious, why do you thing(sic) he(sic) 357mag is the best man stopper bar none???? That is a highly debatable conclusion.
Because someone said so about 30 years ago.
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Old November 14, 2012, 12:55 AM   #34
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Because someone said so about 30 years ago.
It IS amazing that those old school bullets that worked 30 years ago still work today.
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Old November 14, 2012, 11:53 AM   #35
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Bullets "stop" people and game in all sorts of different ways for all sorts of different reasons. Fast and light has a completely different set of stopping properties vs. slow and heavy. Look at the .357 vs. the .45acp. One could argue that they are the best going for SD yet they get the job done completely different ways. Same with rifle rounds like the .30-30 vs. .243, etc etc. The same can be said between 125gr vs. 158gr .357M. One does a better job stopping in certain ways, the other in other ways. Which is better? Doubt we'll ever have enough information to make a good judgment between the 2.

But certain principles don't change. Fast and light beats slow and light. Fast and heavy beats slow and heavy. That's why the .357M beats the .38sp and the 9mm. It's why the .44M beats the .357M, etc etc. Now bullets have changed tremendously over the years. Go read "Sixguns" by Keith and you'll see he had little time for the .38sp. Of coarse he was using mostly cast lead and with those his heavier, wider .44sp. and.45C loads did better, So did the much faster .357M. Kinda a duh don't you think. I often wonder what his findings would of been with modern bullets and loads. The .38sp never would of over taken the .357, 44sp and .45C but it may of moved the .38sp into "acceptable" range instead of the scrap pile.

As for this:
Quote:
I would bet you could put a modern day 9mm bullet against the old 37mag for one stop shots and you could hardly measure the difference.
You may be right. But what if we take modern day 9mm vs. modern day .357? Gotta keep apples to apples don't we? But never the less I generally feel you are right and why I find most "which cartridge" threads bunk. Still, properties don't change and on questionable hits I'll take a heavier and faster hit over a slower and lighter hit. You guarantee me ONE shot to the brain pan or heart and I'll take about handgun ever made. Good luck on that guarantee though.

Last edited by L_Killkenny; November 14, 2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old November 14, 2012, 12:44 PM   #36
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Federal 357B for Me

I'll take the ear damage over losing my hide.
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Old November 14, 2012, 12:49 PM   #37
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My axiom is the more lead, the better.

However, in a .357 Magnum revolver, my preference was a 158 gr. SWC HP (Nyclad) in a +P .38 Special.

Now, its a 240 gr. SJHP in a .44 Special.

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Old November 14, 2012, 01:05 PM   #38
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Ill put it to you this way. My dad is a veteran for the county pd as an officer and a detective. He swears by 125 grain hollow points.
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Old November 14, 2012, 02:51 PM   #39
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Short-sighted, I don't think so. 9mm and .45 will get the job done just as well as the .357 and still save your ears in the process. I used to carry a model 60 in .357, fired a round without ear protection once and I am left with tinnitus in my left ear and high frequency hearing loss. 9mm and .45 can certainly cause hearing loss, but not on the levels of the .357 mag.
Rather have some hearing loss than your life or your loved ones.
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Old November 14, 2012, 03:55 PM   #40
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I vote for 125 cause of there reputation
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Old November 14, 2012, 04:07 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Dragline45
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Short-sighted, I don't think so. 9mm and .45 will get the job done just as well as the .357 and still save your ears in the process.
Just out of curiosity, how do you quantify the terminal effectiveness of 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .45 ACP and the degree of hearing damage each will cause (since we already know that all three can cause some degree of permanent hearing damage)? After all, it seems to me that unless such things can be quantified, then the above statement is more opinion than fact.

As for the 125gr vs. 158gr question, I think that both are good but I prefer the 158gr for a variety of reasons. As to the thought that 158's are overly penetrative, if you use the right bullet, such as a semi-jacketed hollowpoint, they're actually about perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqS3i...ure=plpp_video
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Old November 14, 2012, 10:01 PM   #42
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How does recoil compare between 125 and 158?
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Old November 15, 2012, 02:43 AM   #43
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Super Sneaky Steve

Thank you Super Sneaky Steve I have seen this video and man I favorited this ASAP! Almost the entire block jumps! I have never seen that from another handgun round from brassfetcher!!!!
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Old November 15, 2012, 03:03 AM   #44
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Someone linked to a video clip earlier, you can find more of the vids of bullets through gel here...

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Handguns.htm

Brass Fetcher uses 20% gel for it's vids for dramatic effect. 10% gel is normally used in ammo testing.

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Old November 15, 2012, 04:03 AM   #45
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Thanks Tipoc, the only thing that really gets me when watching gel vids, whether its Tnoutdoors or brassfetcher etc (scubaoz has a lot although not as good) is that the results dont account for bone. Which is where my quandary comes into play.

A heavier bullet will break and shatter the bone AND keep going, a lighter bullet may reflect off (and depending on the direction cause more damage) But to me stopping power depends on the wound cavity, so if shooting someone in the gut = cardiac arrest in their heart then the bullet (apparently 125 grain) will cause that. That to me = 1 shot stop


Thank you all for your input I really took the time to read every post so far and I have that much more to go from, which is not to say, I have learned alot!
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Old November 15, 2012, 04:12 AM   #46
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RE

**And by that I mean Bone inside of the test media
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Old November 15, 2012, 09:36 AM   #47
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For SD/HD one should use whatever works well in their firearm and whatever they are most proficient with and have the most confidence with.....since it is THEIR life and the lives of THEIR loved ones they are trying to protect. If that person is informed about their firearm and knows how to use it properly, how others feel about that choice is meaningless.


BTW....I prefer 158gr.
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Old November 15, 2012, 09:55 AM   #48
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I comformize: I like the 150 grn LSWC (Lyman bullet 358477).

Worked great (and still does) for me. I've put down a lot of moose, and a buffalo with that round pushed by 14.5 grs of 2400 out of my 4 in. Model 28.

Use the same bullet in my 642 to put down a horse last fall. Finished of more then on deer after a muffed shot.

Not to mention a rabbits and grouse for camp meat.

I don't know nor care what the FBI uses. Their needs aren't my needs.

Forget what someone else says, forget who uses what. Get some bullets, shoot them in your gun, see what works for you for the activity you ask your gun/ammo to preform.

I know this doesn't mean nothing, as all bullets (even the same bullets) react different shooting the same media. But both of these bullets were fired out of my 642, into the same media. One is a WW 135 gr +P, the other is my 150gr LSWC.

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Old November 15, 2012, 10:12 AM   #49
Bob Wright
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How does recoil compare between 125 and 158?
The subject is .357 Magnum. Recoil is a non problerm.

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Old November 15, 2012, 12:57 PM   #50
tipoc
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Robert 1811,

In an earlier post Super Sneaky Steve posted a vid of a .357 round which he thought impressive so I linked to some other vids of different rounds for comparison.

Quote:
the only thing that really gets me when watching gel vids, whether its Tnoutdoors or brassfetcher etc (scubaoz has a lot although not as good) is that the results dont account for bone. Which is where my quandary comes into play.
Brassfetcher does have some vids and data where they employ simcast a simulated bone barrier but these can only be of limited use. They are not living bone, they are not radiused and they don't move. The actual point of gel is to help in building a better bullet. The usefulness of the test results and vids is to illustrate how they act on impact. Gel is not a substitute for animal flesh and bone.

Pick a good commercial bullet in a load you like and can shoot well and use that. There are no guarantees at all. Hunting deer or hogs may show what some rounds will do on them.

But I have a question. You say here...

Quote:
A heavier bullet will break and shatter the bone AND keep going, a lighter bullet may reflect off (and depending on the direction cause more damage) But to me stopping power depends on the wound cavity, so if shooting someone in the gut = cardiac arrest in their heart then the bullet (apparently 125 grain) will cause that. That to me = 1 shot stop
I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Do you mean that someone shot with a 125 gr. round from a .357 in the stomach will suffer a heart attack as a result, and that this makes the 125 gr. bullet performance superior and lead to a "one shot stop"? Is this what you meant?

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