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Old November 4, 2012, 09:29 PM   #1
TripHlx
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7.62x25 for Defense?

What do you guys think of the 7.62 Tokarev round for defensive use in a pistol? In the home or CCW, pro's and cons of the round, ammo availability so on and so forth. I would like to hear facts and opinions on this one. Thanks guys!
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Old November 4, 2012, 09:34 PM   #2
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Definitely works from the small and fast perspective. Would be more promising if there were more guns and defensive ammunition available for it.
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Old November 4, 2012, 09:37 PM   #3
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It's similar to, but hotter than the old 7.63 Mauser round which had a reputation for being a pretty good stopper IF the bullet hit bone on the way in. If that happened, the resulting secondary fragments of bone, together with the bullet did a real number on the target. Otherwise, it's like any other FMJ round. In & out, not much of a wound channel to speak of.

With good quality hollowpoints, it should be a reasonably good stopper but there's not a lot of applicable information to go from...
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Old November 4, 2012, 10:07 PM   #4
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i think it's too small and too fast. if everyone i was going to encounter had on kevlar, well then, yes i suppose so. i've shot enough of this to say what i have seen it do. i'm talking about the surplus stuff here. it will go through 1/4" steel, not every time, but most of the time. i've shot it through solid pine also. it went through 6 3x6's. that's roughly 15 inches of wood and didn't start to tumble. i realize that this isn't real world scenarios and not flesh or bone. but that's some good penetration in my book. it sure is a fun cartridge though. not as easy to come by as it once was. and that's a shame too.
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Old November 4, 2012, 11:09 PM   #5
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Penetration is over-rated. Yah. Right.

In a a world of urban BGs hiding behind Imported automobiles and make-shift body armor, the 7.62x25 sounds good to me.
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Old November 5, 2012, 04:41 PM   #6
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Load it with Wolf JHP's, and you've got a pretty good candidate. Would hate to have to deal w/ the hearing loss indoors, though!!
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Old November 5, 2012, 04:46 PM   #7
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...except when the round goes through the BG and hits an innocent bystander.

At the very least you'd want a jhp of some sort for the x25. The FMJ round was the only autoloader tested that would penetrate a kevlar helmet.
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Old November 5, 2012, 07:53 PM   #8
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When I carried my Wz48 (Polish Tok) it was loaded with Wolf or Prvi 85gr JHP and felt very well armed.
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Old November 5, 2012, 09:54 PM   #9
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It is extremely loud and, as others have noted, can have a pretty blinding flash.

The Germans called it the Russian Icepick during WW II because it tended to make straight through and through wounds, as if the person had been stabbed.

I wouldn't depend on it unless I had to.
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:53 PM   #10
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Lack of quality, reliable self defense ammunition is a big negative. Although the TT33's M57's, and CZ 52's are all fun on the range ( I have examples of all three) I don't think they compare with a modern self defense pistol. Nothing available for the 7.62X25 is easily compatible with CCW. I'm not sure that there is even a good quality concealable holster available.
I have thought that a shortened, cut down TT33 with a decent safety would make an interesting CCW weapon. Powerful round, and slim profile. But no such thing exists, and quality ammunition would still be a problem.
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Old November 5, 2012, 11:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Lack of quality, reliable self defense ammunition is a big negative.
Supposedly, the Wolf hollowpoints are pretty good. I can't speak to the powder in said rounds from a defense perspective (they probably still flash a lot), but if you want an expanding round, I think you couldn't do much better than a 7.62x25 loading. I agree the lack of suitable pistols (with functioning decockers and safeties, for instance) is what is dooming this round's potential. It's basically a .30 Magnum (behaves and works just like other magnum loadings), in the neighborhood of the 327mag (which is widely acknowledged to be a very effective defense round).

If a CCW came up chambered for it (I'm looking at you, CZ, or Glock conversion companies), the bullet offerings would undoubtedly improve, and defense legitimacy would finally be bestowed. But there's a lot of steps and moving parts before that ever comes to pass...

TCB
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Old November 6, 2012, 01:06 AM   #12
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Pretty much what Mike said. I'm afraid it would just go straight through a BG without doing enough damage to stop the fight. I sure wouldn't want to shoot it inside a house either because of it's ability to penetrate all sorts of things. If it was between that and no gun of course I'd take it. There's just too many better choices out there for self defense. I sure would like to have one for a fun range gun though!
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Old November 6, 2012, 01:34 AM   #13
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Wolf hollowpoints are pretty good.

I think that's what they call an oxymoron! Ya know, like Jumbo shrimp.

Even if true, "pretty good" doesn't cut it for me when it comes to my CCW guns!!!
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Old November 6, 2012, 01:45 AM   #14
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The OP never stated if he was asking because he wanted to buy a surplus tok for SD, or he was just curious about the round. If the latter, and he is looking for a super high velocity, small bullet round for SD/CCW there is always the Glock 29 (10MM) with a conversion barrel to chamber the 9X25 Dillon round. Double Tap lists a 95 GR. JHP @ 2000 fps. Don't think it would get there in a 29 sized barrel, but it's still a scorcher!
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Old November 6, 2012, 02:07 AM   #15
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Wow, I've gotten a lot more from this than I expected. Keep it coming guys!

Just so you know, I won't be using cheap-o surplus ammo for SD purposes, and if I can't find a good SD ammo I trust I might just roll my own. Handloading is useful that way.

I would love to give the 9x25 Dillon a run, but I can't afford the pistol and conversion barrel right now. 17K a year for a married man with a child makes for a measly shooting budget.

Thanks guys, look forward to hearing more!
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Old November 6, 2012, 02:29 AM   #16
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So do you have a Tokarev, or CZ52 Or are you just considering one?
If you are considering one by all means try to get the Yugoslavian M57. A bit longer in the grip due to the additional one round in the magazine. But the much better safety similar to a 1911 is a big advantage over the add-on trigger blocking thingy on the other imports!
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Old November 6, 2012, 02:34 AM   #17
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Just considering one at the moment. Looking at the Yugo specifically. I am curious as to its merits, since I would want to be able to use it defensively if the need ever arose.

I get the feeling that finding a good CCW holster for it is going to be a hassle unless I have one custom made.
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Old November 6, 2012, 03:09 AM   #18
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Quote:
Quote:
I am curious as to its merits, since I would want to be able to use it defensively if the need ever arose.
Although my Polish, and Romanian TT33's, and Yugo M57 are just range toys they have been 100% reliable. Everything has been with surplus military ammo, no commercial HP, so I don't really know how well it works in them.

Quote:
I get the feeling that finding a good CCW holster for it is going to be a hassle unless I have one custom made.
Something in a generic 1911 might work. Similar profile, but considerably thinner.

I know you seem bent on a ultra high velocity round, but may I suggest a CZ82. they sell in the same price range as the M57, but are chambered in 9X18 Makarov. Very similar, in fact the ballistics of most rounds are equal to 380ACP. The CZ 82 is a much more modern design with DA/SA capability, drop-hammer safety, and a 12+1 round capacity. Hornady even offers a 9X18 Critical Defense round.
Another choice for something a little more concealable is a Polish P64. Again in 8X18, but with a single stack magazine holding 6 rounds. the double action trigger pull is atrocious, but lighter mainsprings are available, and easy to install. Mine works great, with no reliability problems after changing the spring.
There is a commercial, new gun oprion in 380, 9MM, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. But I'm NOT going to open that can of worms on this thread. I'm sure if you have been looking into handguns, and reading many threads on TFL, you know what I am talking about.
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Old November 6, 2012, 09:33 AM   #19
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Just for the record, I've shot a couple thousand rounds of 7.62x25 through my CZ52 and Zastava M57 and I've NEVER had even one misfire or dud of any kind... That includes new-production Sellior & Bellot ordered online and delivered to my door which is available through many companies... just google for a bunch. So, to me, neither reliability or availability is a problem whatsoever.

Quote:
I would want to be able to use it defensively if the need ever arose.
Well, jeepers creepers, thousands of commie-bloc uniformed personnel carried 7.62x25 weapons during many decades. They weren't idiots. Anyone who's shot one KNOWS they wouldn't want to be shot BY one.

PS: As mentioned above, the CZ82 in 9x18 is a great alternative and was a next step in the evolutionary design process.
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Old November 6, 2012, 10:20 AM   #20
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"Well, jeepers creepers, thousands of commie-bloc uniformed personnel carried 7.62x25 weapons during many decades."

Yeah, they did. Because they were ISSUED to them. It wasn't exactly a case of their choosing those guns based on a list of options.


As I noted above, the Germans called it the Russian Ice Pick. The round wasn't know for doing a lot of damage to its target. The Germans felt their 9mm round was a much better stopper as it tended to do a lot more damage.

The major benefit the Soviet soldier had was that, if he was armed with a 7.62x25, it was most likely a PPSh that fired 900 rounds a minute. What a single round lacks in wounding ability is more than compensated for when you have that much lead flying.
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Old November 6, 2012, 10:35 AM   #21
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If the 7.62Tok were available loaded with a quality JHP, I'd consider it as an inexpensive option.

For the OP, some data using Hornady JHPs-

http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x25m...ry%20Table.pdf

I think that the Wolf 85 gr. all-copper JHP looks awfully promising with expansion to ~1.5x caliber.
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Old November 7, 2012, 06:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Cheapshooteroriginally said:Wolf hollowpoints are pretty good.

I think that's what they call an oxymoron! Ya know, like Jumbo shrimp.
This ammo happens to be Wolf Gold......made by PRVI! In Jello Junkie tests even with the denim barrier they consistently perform quite well with adequate penetration ~13.5".
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Old November 7, 2012, 07:56 PM   #23
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^
Not to mention significant (and more importantly) consistent expansion. Granted, if you need a bigger bullet than even an expanded tok round (I think it was around .5") then you'll need a bigger bullet. If not for the lack of bullet development (because everyone was distracted by cheap surplus and developing the 5.7x28), the tok would be as effective as the 327 Federal Magnum (and not limited to 6 shots)

From Wiki:
Tok: 85g JHP 1700ft/sec, 4.75" barrel
100g JHP 1874ft/sec, 5.75" barrel

At any rate, the tok is well within the class of "effective" SD rounds, it just needs someone to bother developing its potential (which mainly involves designing guns chambered for it)

TCB
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Old November 7, 2012, 08:45 PM   #24
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Reed's offers 7.62x25 ammo loaded with premium bullets like Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot. The 90 and 100gr XTP loadings look like they might be somewhat promising.

http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=14
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Old November 7, 2012, 09:09 PM   #25
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I'd be particularly interested in how the Tok performs with heavier bullets like the 100gr in comparison to the 327 (kinda hard to do apples-apples when .30 cal pistol bullets aren't common in other chamberings ). A thin-jacketed varmint-type bullet like a Vmax or something would blow apart at Tok speeds, I'd think (I wonder if the 110gr Vmax .308 would be too long for the magazine...?)

TCB
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