The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 30, 2015, 07:21 PM   #1
Mainah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 565
Cecil the lion

Don't see the need for a link, huge online story now. Just looking for thoughts from folks here. Especially from Africans. Seems like this case could end lion hunts, is that a bad thing?
Mainah is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 07:29 PM   #2
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 6,130
No win situation

Quote:
Seems like this case could end lion hunts, is that a bad thing?
If so, it would be a bad thing as it would certainly reduce the income of folks that benefit by this business. Once again, the Bunny-Huggers are protesting before they have the facts. "Right" now, it's possible that this dentist has already been judged and the rope is going around his neck. Regardless of the eventual facts, he has already lost. .....

Be Equitable and;
Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 07:52 PM   #3
BarryLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,023
Seems like some people think Zimbabwe has bigger issues than Cecil the Lion. Disc Jockey Eric Knight said, “my people are suffering from a mountain of problems and the international world is not interested. A lion is killed then its all over the world news including Skynews”.

It would be nice if the average American got as worked up about issues impacting actual human beings as they do about those which impact animals. Yes, there may very well have been some questionable activities going on with the demise of good ole Cecil, but children die every day in Africa and many in the USA never even notice.

http://zimbabwenewsday.co.uk/2015/07...e-lion-knight/
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
- Milton Friedman
BarryLee is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 08:47 PM   #4
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,909
This incident has shone a big spotlight on the terrible practice. This issue has made Americans, gun owners, and hunters look like total jerks. The "bunny hugger" comment really ticks me off. It's insulting and condescending.

I'm pro gun. I'm pro hunting where there is a bona fide need and the hunt is ethical and fair and requires skill. I'm opposed to unfair, unethical, and inhumane hunting or treatment of animals. In other words, I have a conscience. Likewise, I'm opposed to big game hunts of animals struggling for survival.

In my view, it's sad that as humans we cannot save these except for paying to hunt them. That's a sad indictment of "conservationists." Like probably 90% of the world, I have a very low opinion of someone who kills for sport. There is no difference between sport hunting and dog fighting, which is offensive and illegal.

It's also offensive that people enjoy killing, and have no other better way to spend their $10,000 or $20,000 or $50,000 or hundreds of thousands of dollars than to go kill some big beautiful creature on the brink of extinction. I cannot imagine how anyone can justify this demented behavior. Take a room with 100 strangers and average people, I bet none of them condone this action. While they argue "conservation" imagine what better actual conservation could be done with that HUGE sum of money if put to the cause of actually saving these, rather than killing them. So, it's not about conservation. It's about depraved thrills and ego. If I killed a lion, elephant, rhino, etc. I would feel nothing but shame and remorse. I cannot fathom how anyone gets joy from this.

Apparently this guy Palmer has gone into hiding. Brave man indeed. He has a shady past, including news reports of a 2008 Federal conviction for lying about a bear hunt, and a lawsuit settlement of $127,000 for sex harassment or assault. What a rotten person. Now this hunt, where he claims he did it lawfully and ethically. Let's look at the facts. According to multiple news sources, at night he was shining for lions (unethical and illegal), lured one out from the sanctuary (unethical and illegal), shot it with a bow (unethical since it's underpowered), tracked it for 40 hours and then killed it and tried to destroy the evidence and GPS tracker (unethical and illegal). Cecil was a healthy, well known, adult male. One of few remaining - estimates are that due to humans lion population has shrunk from 450,000 to just 20,000 in the last 60 years. And Cecil is just the one we know of. So much for the statements that big game hunters just take the old and weak.

I propose we lean on Africa with out $12 BILLION annual contributions and request they strictly outlaw hunts, and punish severely anyone hunting them or possessing their body parts.

It's illogical to think that killing them is the solution to saving them. I understand and reject the arguments and all of the forthcoming cherry picked statistics about the increase in populations, etc. which by the way were only depleted to begin with by humans and hunting.
__________________
2A: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF (2008, 2009, 2010) and OND (2011). Bronze Star Medal and Meritorious Service Medal recipient. NRA Lifetime Member. I'm a lawyer, but not YOUR lawyer and I have not offered you legal advice.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 09:08 PM   #5
WyMark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
Something I agree with pretty much word for word, including the "bunny hugger" crap.

Once again, the Dirt-Bag Huggers are defending an idiot before they have the facts. Luring the lion out of a preserve in order to shoot it? Really? I hunt and have no problem with it. I do have a problem with killing animals for sport, especially taking the head and cape and leaving the carcass. That's just crass and this selfish idiot deserves everything he has coming.
WyMark is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 09:36 PM   #6
Knightsofnee
Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2013
Posts: 89
Feed him to the lions. But then there's a bunch of people I'd feed to the lions and he's just one of them.
Knightsofnee is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 09:38 PM   #7
Saltydog235
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2010
Location: Pawleys Island
Posts: 1,280
I find it a sad state of affairs that everyone gets upset over a man that paid $54,000.00 to harvest a cat whether legal or not. Then is tried in the court of public opinion and found guilty before the facts are out. Then those same people shrug their shoulders, don't bat an eye or really give a "insert expelative of choice" when our own government is funding and sanctioning the murder of fully formed fetuses with intent to sell the body parts for profit. You want to be incensed about something, maybe that would be a better choice for outrage than a bearded cat in Africa.
Saltydog235 is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 09:52 PM   #8
Rangerrich99
Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 87
Wait, before you guys get going on this one, let me nuke a couple bags of popcorn . . . this is way better than whatever's on the boob tube right now.
Rangerrich99 is offline  
Old July 30, 2015, 10:05 PM   #9
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 3,518
I read a blurb that this cat was actually scheduled to be harvested. I'm not in any way condoning how it turned out. Many animals on these preserves are scheduled to be harvested at the end of their quality of life and the proceeds go back into the preserves; the meat is donated to villagers.... This didn't happen in this case obviously.

I've seen in online circles, many of these trophy hunters being demonized. I thumb through other worlds to get the big picture of it all.

I don't like trophy hunts, but I'm ok with it if a use of the animals remains occurs.

I also support extermination of nuisence animals on the states.
I don't support what became of this cat.
However, there are bigger fish to fry in this country to worry about rich trophy hunters much.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old Yesterday, 04:15 AM   #10
rightside
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 187
I am continually amazed at the knee-jerk reactions we have today from both sides. I would like a few more UNFILTERED facts before I decide the right and wrong of it. How come the facts don't seem to matter anymore and why would anyone believe what the modern press and social media say?
rightside is offline  
Old Yesterday, 04:54 AM   #11
Targa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Posts: 169
Im all for hunting, nothing in the world better than back straps off a elk with sauteed mushrooms but I have never been a fan of trophy hunters. With that said, this does show how screwed up our priorities are as a nation.
Targa is offline  
Old Yesterday, 06:35 AM   #12
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 22,984
As long as the meat is not wasted, what's wrong with seeking a "trophy"-sized critter? Am I supposed to only shoot a mediocre specimen? What, is the modern deal, "Avoid all challenges!"?

As far as Cecil, he was killed in an approved Zim government fashion:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...-concern-was-g

This corruption has long been known by the US State Department. It's not at all new except to the MSM and social media.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old Yesterday, 06:53 AM   #13
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 1,279
This is a case of something getting blown totally out of proportion by people exploiting who are opposed to any hunting and are not concerned with facts. There are obvious questions that ethical hunters have in this case, as it may have been a case of poaching, or a case of a wannabe African hunter being duped by criminal guides, but it does not matter what the answers are to the antis. They hate this guy because he wanted to hunt a lion, and would still be protesting if the entire hunt and methods had met every standard of the most ethical hunter alive.

I highly question whether the local community is really "outraged" or could care less.
Quote:
Disc Jockey Eric Knight said, “my people are suffering from a mountain of problems and the international world is not interested. A lion is killed then its all over the world news including Skynews”.
It's not unusual for antis to project their own outrage onto people they feel should be, but are not. I'd like to know what the locals really think about it.

Then we get the self-righteous within the hunting community to throw around an anti created term such as "trophy hunter" to cast dispersions on people who hunt for reasons other than meat, as though they themselves must hunt for their own survival or face starvation. We sure seem to have no problem bragging about our "trophy" deer or elk, and have no qualms about passing on a lessor animal to bag one. We have a program in Ohio where hunters can donate their deer meat to local food banks and shelters from people who enjoy hunting for that "trophy" deer but don't like deer meat. We in the States hunt groundhogs, prairie dogs, coyotes, and fox, and we trap rats, mice, and gophers because they are pests, and because they are in sufficient numbers, but not many eat them. we hunt mountian lions yet I don't expect many are eaten. We hunt and trap many species for fur. We kill wild hogs indiscriminately as a duty, yet many are not eaten. Probably most bears taken are not eaten. The state of Alaska requires that you only recover the hide and skull. We typically only get upset when meat is wasted that is highly revered as excellent tablefare. So then we are going to point our finger at hunters in another country on another continent where they do managed hunts for another predator that is ABSOLUTELY NOT ENDANGERED, and call them "trophy hunters" because they dare hunt someting they are not going to eat, (even if the meat goes to starving locals.) So why does the non-endangered African lion get elevated to such a status that we can be arrogant and condemn those who hunt them, while we do the same with other animals?

Sure this case has a lot of questionable actions that need to be accounted for, and may involve illegal activity, but I would caution all hunters about jumping on the high and mighty PC bandwagon before the facts are out. This could be your next mountain lion hunt. We've seen enough of these media broadcast stories destroy innocent people's lives (police) in recent years by demonizing them before the facts proved the opposite. It is foolish to believe the media would treat hunters and more fairly than police officers.
TimSr is offline  
Old Yesterday, 06:54 AM   #14
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 1,279
Quote:
I am continually amazed at the knee-jerk reactions we have today from both sides. I would like a few more UNFILTERED facts before I decide the right and wrong of it. How come the facts don't seem to matter anymore and why would anyone believe what the modern press and social media say?

"Hands up don't shoot!"
TimSr is offline  
Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM   #15
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 22,984
Felix Salter (author of "Bambi") and Walt Disney have been the worst enemies of wildlife management ever known. When you anthropomorphize animals, you run and hide from reality.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old Yesterday, 07:19 AM   #16
drobs
Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2015
Location: South Central MO / Africa
Posts: 49
I'd eat Lion. Put a little pepper and Kosher Salt on it, toss it on the grill...
Bet it aint that bad.
drobs is offline  
Old Yesterday, 08:26 AM   #17
Saltydog235
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2010
Location: Pawleys Island
Posts: 1,280
Quote:
I'd eat Lion. Put a little pepper and Kosher Salt on it, toss it on the grill...
Bet it aint that bad.
How about a load of feral cats. You can put a couple on the grill at a time.

Where is all the outrage for the poachers who shoot thousands of African game animals every year for a single part to sell on the black market:

Time to hold a vigil for:

Kerry Kudu
Robby Rhino
Elmer Elephant
Harry Hippo
Chuck Croc
Wally Warthog
Zeek Zebra
Sammy Springbock
Larry Leopard
Charles Cheetah
Gary Gorilla

Amazing how good the media is at holding shiny trinkets in front of the masses to get them distracted from actual stories that matter.
Saltydog235 is offline  
Old Yesterday, 10:35 AM   #18
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, T
Posts: 10,813
This issue has obviously brought out the fruits and nuts on both sides.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old Yesterday, 10:50 AM   #19
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,454
There are many who think the concept of "trophy hunting" is just this side of serial killing, that the people who do it are sick, twisted individuals. Your mileage may vary and you asked for opinions.
zincwarrior is online now  
Old Yesterday, 10:51 AM   #20
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,454
Quote:
This issue has obviously brought out the fruits and nuts on both sides.
A maxim in law, never ask a question you don't know the answer to.
zincwarrior is online now  
Old Yesterday, 11:14 AM   #21
lot12001
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2015
Posts: 6
I'm no fan of trophy hunters, poachers, or the civies who provide the market for endangered species. This case in particular is abhorrent given the lengths this "hunter" went to kill this particular lion, and thru incompetence or sadism prolonged his suffering.

And, yes, there is a lot of suffering going around the world but it seems to me that the vast majority of posters criticizing those who have compassion for this "dumb animal" haven't pursued any human charities beyond their own.
lot12001 is offline  
Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM   #22
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 3,173
I fully support hunting to fill your freezer full of meat, or to keep population in check. But to kill animals simply for thrill or for pleasure, you are no different than the sick neighborhood kid killing people's cats for kicks. In my mind if you get enjoyment from killing animals you are one sick minded individual.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM   #23
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 6,130
Passing on the Big-6

You use to hear a lot about hunting the Big-6 or whatever. I once reviewed the list and mostly talked myself out of it. Here is my measure;

Elephant: I honestly think the skies would open up and I would be smited!
Rhinoceros: Not many of them left to hunt.
Leopard: Just a big cat and we are seeing more of them around here.
Lion: Just another big cat. Hard to eat and cook.
Hippopotamus: Related to the horse and full body mount won't work.
Cape Buffalo: Now youre talking and there is a fella worth, your salt. However, have seen what they will do if you don't shoot straight.

Be prudent and;
Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old Yesterday, 11:34 AM   #24
Mainah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 565
Quote:
I am continually amazed at the knee-jerk reactions we have today from both sides. I would like a few more UNFILTERED facts before I decide the right and wrong of it. How come the facts don't seem to matter anymore and why would anyone believe what the modern press and social media say?
It strikes me as a modern version of the Salem witch trials. If the reported story is accurate I don't have much sympathy for the guy, but his family didn't do much to deserve the wrath of the internet. And their lives have been destroyed for a long time.

I'm aware that trophy hunting can be a positive for African people and wildlife. However it seems that this specific lion was already a big draw, and making plenty of money for the locals. I don't have a problem with someone paying that much money for a hunt, that's his business. I do struggle to understand how someone smart enough to have that much money for a hunt could be stupid enough to spend 50k to essentially ruin their life.
Mainah is offline  
Old Yesterday, 11:36 AM   #25
lot12001
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2015
Posts: 6
^
Rhinos themselves are a pretty depressing topic. I wasn't around to watch the dodo go extinct but there are only four Northern Whites left.
lot12001 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2015 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13176 seconds with 9 queries