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Old October 14, 2012, 05:56 PM   #1
rodeo roy
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Real self defense

The difference between SD shooting and somebody crossing the line in street justice have been noted. For me part of my self defense is paying careful attention to the area, staying out of danger or recognizing a threat potential is as important as being ready to use your gun.

In SD the gun won't save you, your mind will. Some EDC'ers think cause they carry and what they carry means that they can go get gas in an unkown area at night, or walk past a group of shady looking people, or other actions that you would not do if you didn't carry.

Being careful is your first line of defense, know your surroudings threats can come from anywhere any time but it helps to being paying attention.

Last edited by rodeo roy; October 14, 2012 at 11:54 PM.
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Old October 14, 2012, 08:39 PM   #2
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We call that "situational awareness"
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Old October 14, 2012, 09:09 PM   #3
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10-4 on the SA
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Old October 14, 2012, 11:40 PM   #4
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Risk mitigation is your friend and your first line of defense; Situation awareness your second and the firearm should be your last.


Start off by not going to that dangerous area...park in well lit areas at night; if you are really paranoid don't have a routine that someone can set a watch to.

Wherever you do go watch your environment; try to get out before it turns into a SD Scenario once you notice something is not right/threat is imminent

If you cannot get out then defend yourself.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 14, 2012 at 11:50 PM. Reason: delete vulgarity
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Old October 15, 2012, 12:05 AM   #5
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It really annoys my wife to catch me checking for escape routes, safe areas etc while shopping. IMO, in today's troubled world, situation awareness is a must.
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Old October 15, 2012, 06:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
It really annoys my wife to catch me checking for escape routes, safe areas etc while shopping. IMO, in today's troubled world, situation awareness is a must.
My ol' lady hates when I do that too, but when something actually goes down they'll appreciate it!
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Old October 15, 2012, 10:02 AM   #7
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Plain ole common sense and goodl ole "paying attention". The OP make a good point all around.

Over the past 10-15 years I have noticed this trend of trying to make common sense and paying attention into some highly intellectualized ideology filled with fancy Military sounding jargon and acronyms. All of which have meanings that have already been well established in common language for over a century.. they just dont sound as kool or sell merchandise.

Grand-ma and Grand-pa said it best:

G-ma: Pay attention and Be careful

G-pa: Eyes open..mouth shut

Lets not even start in on the word "tactical"... which actually had a realistic meaning a few decades ago.
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Last edited by FireForged; October 15, 2012 at 10:10 AM.
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Old October 15, 2012, 10:40 AM   #8
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Tactical ? Did you say Tactical ? This is Tactical.
http://www.military.com/video/logist...1158023142001/
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Old October 15, 2012, 12:20 PM   #9
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Six elements separating winners from losers

Mindset, Knowledge, Judgment, Tactics, Marksmanship, firearm. In order of importance

Agree wholeheartedly that the first three elements, when followed, can often keep you out of a shooting situation.
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Old October 16, 2012, 04:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
It really annoys my wife to catch me checking for escape routes, safe areas etc while shopping. IMO, in today's troubled world, situation awareness is a must.
Yes, my GF gets annoyed with me sometimes, we went out to dinner, I told her I was going to use the restroom before we sat down, I did and also checked for exits at the back of the building, I have learned to be sneaky about sizing up people in the room and my surroundings in general, so as not to appear distant when I'm with her.
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Old October 16, 2012, 11:07 PM   #11
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If your lady catches you, you're posing, not checking.
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Old October 18, 2012, 12:59 PM   #12
Darren Roberts
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^^^^ Now that's some funny stuff.
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Old October 18, 2012, 02:40 PM   #13
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Situational awareness is probably the most important thing I learned at Gunsite. Jeff Cooper used a four part color code to teach his concept of levels of mental awareness.
CONDITION WHITE - when a person is unaware of what is going on around them.
CONDITION YELLOW - is being alert to what is going on around you. You don't let people or things get within a perimeter without being aware. This is a relaxed state of general alertness, with no specific focal point.
CONDITION ORANGE- This is a heightened state of alertness, with a specific focal point.
CONDITION RED- In Red, you are ready to fight!

For a more detailed essay on the Color Code:
States of Awareness, the Cooper Color Codes By Tom Givens
http://www.teddytactical.com/Sharpen...0Awareness.htm

Situational awareness is something I always use when I leave home. I have never had to use my handgun as a civilian in 30 years of carrying. I believe that being aware has saved me serious grief on several occasions.
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Old October 18, 2012, 03:02 PM   #14
rodeo roy
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I have seen and use the color code concept, I just use numbers. 4 is safe 30-50yds out, 1 is danger 8yds to 5ft. Used with my son I ask him to say what he sees in zone 4 at 2'oclock the switch vision to 11'oclock zone 2.

In a real life sd which is the proper fight or flee zone distant, can you see somebody pull a gun and make a dash for cover or exit stage left in 50yds, 30yds, where do you make a stand and fight from. No wrong or right answer just wondering
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Old October 20, 2012, 12:29 PM   #15
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I learned a long, long time ago that there is always someone better, faster, stronger. Just because you carry a gun does not mean you can walk down every dark alley.

Your gun is only one part of the solution.

Sun Tzu wrote:

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
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Old October 20, 2012, 07:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...In a real life sd which is the proper fight or flee zone distant, can you see somebody pull a gun and make a dash for cover or exit stage left in 50yds, 30yds, where do you make a stand and fight from. No wrong or right answer just wondering ...
The reasons there's no right answer are because (1) distance alone is not the test; and (2) it's not even the right question.

The basic test as to whether lethal force would be justified is sometimes referred to as AOJP:
  1. Would a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances and knowing what you know conclude that the assailant had the Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm;

  2. Would a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances and knowing what you know conclude that the assailant had the the Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force;

  3. Would a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances and knowing what you know believe himself or an innocent to be in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he has the intent to kill or cripple; and

  4. Would a reasonable and prudent person in like circumstances and knowing what you know conclude that circumstances Preclude other safe [to the defender] means of avoiding harm?

Distance can be a part of the equation, but there are other factors as well that are material to assessing the situation.
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Old October 21, 2012, 11:04 AM   #17
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Probably time to post a reminder that no matter who you are or how intensely you train, you're simply not as aware as you think you are.

Don't believe me? Read the old thread at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400992 ... then we can talk.

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Old October 21, 2012, 08:53 PM   #18
rodeo roy
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pax

I did see something enter the picture but I did not focus on it so I had no clue it was a gorilla. In the second vid I noticed the change, but did not trust what I thought I saw.

The whole thing really speaks to the multiple attacker scenario. I know my ability to hit what I aim at has a lot to do with focusing on the target. It was eye opening. I did not read all of the text so I did not see if any exercises were given to help see better if possible.

I work on getting shoots on target quickly and getting cover or out of the direct access to the attacker. Sd has so many different aspects that one could never really train for everything you just gotta hope whatever you train/practice would be of some use if you need it, but how do you train to see better.
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Old October 21, 2012, 09:05 PM   #19
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Frank

I am aware of the legal part in my state. Some have mentioned that part of their training /practice includes shoots of 50yds or more as part of sd. Where I live that's likely murder. I also know that some one intent on getting to you to harm you will close a lot of ground fast. The question was asked as a personal what would you do. Personally if I had to choose I'd say 30ft is around the time to hit the action button for me but, truth is you never know when.
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Old October 21, 2012, 10:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
....Some have mentioned that part of their training /practice includes shoots of 50yds or more as part of sd. Where I live that's likely murder...
There are a number of reasons to regularly include practice at extended distances in one's practice regimen. Among other things, it's useful for developing and maintaining basic marksmanship skills, especially trigger control. And on rare occasions someone has had to defend himself against a legitimate, but distant, threat.
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Old October 22, 2012, 07:01 PM   #21
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Odd situations do happen. There was the citizen who defended the police officer in the trailer park with a 100+yd revolver shot recently. The high-profile example would be the Fairchild AFB shooting in 1994, where an AF SP killed the shooter with a 70+ yard head shot with his M9.
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Old October 25, 2012, 08:01 AM   #22
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Odd situations do happen. There was the citizen who defended the police officer in the trailer park with a 100+yd revolver shot recently. The high-profile example would be the Fairchild AFB shooting in 1994, where an AF SP killed the shooter with a 70+ yard head shot with his M9.
The happen far more often than people realize. That is why your training should include marksmanship skills as well as bad breath distance. You should not just train for "My Gunfight", it probably will not be anything like what you envisioned.
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Old October 25, 2012, 08:52 AM   #23
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I think there is another level to be considered even before you get to the being aware of what is around you phase.

I start by choosing where I live and what i do for a living. Detroit and drug dealer were not on my list.

Given that I live where I do and earn my keep the way I do, there are places that I don't go if I can help it. There are times that I am not running around away from home if possible. There are people i stay away from whenever I can.

(Like someone's grandmother said, "Ain't nothin' good happens after midnight.")

When those conditions cannot be met, I start paying a lot more attention. I am not walking around a shopping mall in Longview like I was on a patrol overseas.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:48 AM   #24
rodeo roy
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Consider the people that do live in Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans and other urban cities. The people that live there and work there may have a better sense of awareness than someone from a rural or less crime infested city. As far as I know Chicago has no carry law or it's very limited, so carrying a gun can make you a bad guy too, but would you rather be caught without one.

People in those type of places have places within that city they won't go into and people they won't go around just like anyone anywhere else. People that work in those cities still gotta be able to protect what they work for and themselves and families, so when you go to places like that I would think in some cases it may be safer than you think cause likely everybody that can carry is carrying, and I would think that would make the bg think twice.

Some of the worst shootings as far as mass type don't happen as much in the cities that have the biggest crime stigma, wonder why. Could it be cause everybody in those cities got a gun and would stop that threat.

Last edited by rodeo roy; October 25, 2012 at 10:57 AM.
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Old October 25, 2012, 03:26 PM   #25
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I don't disagree with the above post. It's just that people tend to preach awareness at what I'd call a low or tactical level (like looking for escape routes and things like that). I think you can minimize the need for that if you are aware of things on a grander scale.

I think you start by being aware of the consequences of where you tend to live and work and what you do. It isn't always easy to change these things. However, it is something one might consider.

Once those issues are decided, I think you should be aware of where you go, when you go there, what you do and who you hang around with. For example, if I am leaving to drive somwhere before the sun comes up, I fill up the car the day before - no need to be at some "stop and rob" out on the highway in the dark if some prior planning can avoid it.

That leaves you with situations that are less risky. Or you could say there is less chance of having something bad happen. I'm not saying you don't have to aware of what's around you, but you shouldn't have to be wound tighter than a two dollar watch all the time either. That can lead to bad decisions.

My goal is to depart this life having never had to defend myself or even having threatened to do so. I don't even want to have come close to doing so if I can help it.

The way to do that - in my opinion - is to be aware of potential consequences at a fairly grand scale and try to mitigate risk at that level.
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