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Old November 21, 2012, 10:04 AM   #76
mavracer
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Pfletch83,
So apparently in your opinion 4 or 5 holes is the magic #. because in the case of the Judge/Governer 4 holes is better than 1 but for shotguns 12 holes is not better that 4 or 5.
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Old November 21, 2012, 10:13 AM   #77
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We seem to have drifted a long way from the OP. The .410 shotgun is more than adequate for shooters who want a light shotgun that won't beat them to death with recoil. I see it in the same category as a .357Mag lever-action rifle. Are either longarm as powerful as a 12ga./.308Win longarm?....no. But they do the job adequately.

The military/LEO choices are a red herring. Just because the military tends to defend its "property" with grenades and .50BMG machine guns doesn't make them a good choice for civilian HD. Conversely, LEO's often resopnd to situations first with handguns....then with SWAT teams. Shotguns don't see much use anymore.

For an inexperienced shooter looking for a good HD/recreational shotgun, the .410 has a lot to offer. As they gain more experience and/or look toward more sporting uses (wingshooting, 3-Gun, trap), the 12ga becomes a better choice. Choose the right tool for the job....and for the user.
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Old November 21, 2012, 11:12 AM   #78
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My wife, sons, and I all hunt with rifles during the deer firearms season. We are all proficient with rifle recoil.

That being said, my almost-14 year old daughter is home alone sometimes.
She is recoil-averse and doesn't hunt or really care about firearms at all.
She is the reason I keep #4 buckshot in a sidesaddle holster on our NEF Topper .410 single shot behind the bedroom door.

I've been able to instruct her on how to enter the bedroom, lock the door, and load the single-shot and hold on the door. If someone breaks in to the downstairs while she is home alone, she is to follow this procedure.

I feel confident in her ability to defend herself with the .410 in this situation.
9 .240 diameter pellets of Federal #4 buck @ 1100fps to the head/neck/chest area from 8 yards across our bedroom using the bed for a rest tends to mess up a home invaders day.

Last edited by jlove1974; November 21, 2012 at 11:18 AM.
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Old November 21, 2012, 12:09 PM   #79
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So let's look at the original statements made in the OP.

The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool,the gauge/caliber can be used by anyone that can shoulder a long arm. Mostly true. It is more than adequate for defensive use. Most anyone who can shoulder a long arm could use one.

The ammo situation is being cleared up due to the handguns that have arrived on the market. True. Before the 410 derringer can onto the scene your choices were bird shot and 1/5 oz slugs. Now we have real choices in buckshot and better slugs are available.

The .410 guns are light weight and have a low recoil. Mostly true. The real lightweights like the single shots have a fair amount of kick with a 3" shell. Yes you can game a 12 gauge into the same levels of recoil with 20 gauge payloads and low velocity but that's not the point.

Ammo is also lacking in the weight and bulk area,which allows for more shells to be carried for the same weight as larger gauge guns. True.

The payload is small but is still capable of putting down a two legged threat and is nothing to sneeze at. True The lowly 2 1/2" shell with 3 000Buck pellets is still putting out 210 grains of lead at 1200-1300 fps.; that is 41 Mag. territory energy wise spread over three wound tracks.

For those that are new to shotgunning I would recommend a .410,not only because of the low recoil,but because the limited amount of shot will force the shooter to practice more and in turn become a better shotgunner with the heavy hitters on down the line. False. You can't make someone practice. The higher (almost 3X) cost of shells in general will turn many people away from practicing more. With the 12 and 20 gauge you can get bird shot loads that have the same weight and velocity to match the buckshot loads substantially cheaper than buckshot. For defensive practice it really doesn't matter if you substitute bird for buck; you either hit the target or you do not hit the target. The indoor ranges that do allow shotguns do not let you use buckshot anyways; at least in my neck of the woods.
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Old November 21, 2012, 01:48 PM   #80
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The world of buckshot ammunition continues to advance. So yes today's 3" .410 with five .35 caliber pellets treads closely on the heals of the 2.75" 12 bore loaded with just three more pellets in the load.

Beyond in house defensive use, all that remains is bringing high antimony buckshot pellets, a shot cup and buffer into the .410 picture to tighten the patterns up sufficiently for close range deer hunting.

Old ideas about shotgun performance will nonetheless die slowly.

Last edited by RMcL; November 21, 2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old November 21, 2012, 06:32 PM   #81
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@RMcL

The tighter pattern is what I was getting at with the cylinder choke barrel and large pellets.

The smoother the launch the better the pattern down range.

The thing that makes the .410 so distinct is that each pellet is getting the max use of such a small powder charge.

@SHR970

5 out of 6 ain't bad
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:20 PM   #82
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If high antimony or hard cast buckshot were loaded in a full length shot cup with buffer, then the tightest patterns would most likely result from a choke bore that matched the diameter of the pellets plus shot cup petal thickness x 2.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:26 PM   #83
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Quote:
Also you didn't seem to be paying attention to what SHR970 had to say on the matter.
And just what do you think I didn't pay attention? Quote it.

I watched the pepsi box video and the following.

Going back, I agree the 000 is best for outside, but HD is generally inside as you seem to acknowledge.

I read his nonsense. Unless there is a special reason, a shooter is fine and will practice plenty with a gauge heavier than the .410. I have a buddy with sever scliosis and he is a great trap shooter with the .410 shooting 23's, but if he could handle a 12 he would be regularly scoring 25.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:27 PM   #84
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@RMcL

The federal 4-pellet load and 3-inch #4 buck load do use a shotcup and a flight control wad (if memory serves,also the '000' pellets are copper plated so that does toughen them up more than plain soft lead)

The full choke barrel works very well with #4 buck

but not with '000' or slugs (messes with the shot cup during exit and deforms slugs)

Last edited by Pfletch83; November 21, 2012 at 09:33 PM.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:32 PM   #85
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@Klawman

Well that is the main reason I've been looking at the 28 gauge.

Should be able to hold more #4 buck than a .410 but keep some of the more desired qualities of lighter weight and recoil.

This is the post I was talking about earlier....

"Neither

8" off center will be a fringe or B Zone hit at best on the average man using any of the tight patterning loads. You might want to read this Boxotruth. The 20 yard test is quite revealing. If you take a garbage shot you will get garbage results."
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Old November 21, 2012, 10:52 PM   #86
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Alright Klawman... it seems even when I agree with you I am writing nonsense. Where do you believe that I am spouting total garbage?

How about your own contradictions?

Quote:
At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.

With the pattern of each centered 8" to the left of center, I believe you are likely to get 29 hits with #4 and 12 misses. With the 5 pieces of 000 in the .410, you may only get 3 or 4 hits.
This suggests that you haven't patterned either load. If so then this is just conjecture on your part

Quote:
Notice my question asked about to the right or left of center. If you off to one side, you are likely to place much of the pattern over the heart and may put some pellets into the left ventricle and the apex, which likelihood increases if you have more pellets. The heart doesn't lay that deep and there is little or no need to penetrate more than a few inches. The other side is a different matter. Still, with 8 times as many bits of shot, the #4 is more likely to place more lead nearer to center mass.
I don't disagree with this if nominally off center; however a 16" pattern at 10 yards with #4 buck (which is needed to hit the heart if 8" off center which you called out) also means you are going to have some pellets miss that target if you are at all off center translating into the possibility of collateral damage.

Quote:
Regardless, the focus of the question was which is most likely and not if either was likely to stop a BG. I submit the 12 loaded with #4 is the most likely.
Not part of the OP and a red herring, a CoM shot with either are 99% likely to do the job.

Quote:
I also asked about risks of collateral damage. No one addressed the issue since they know it is much greater from 000 that #4 due to the fact that the 000 given the same velocity much more likely to penetrate walls and even the BG and hit innocents.
12 misses of #4 Buck (an optimistic number since 8" off center is a miss on the average male for a frontal shot which means half of your pattern misses) vis a vis 5 pellets of 000Buck slowed down in the target means that you have 7 more chances of hitting an unintended target by your own numbers and more than likely 15.

Post #35
Quote:
Now I have to get some sleep as I am taking my 5'3" daughter to the range to shoot my 12 gauge 870 (for which I have prepared some 7/8 ounce loads).
Now you are gaming the loads to try to fit your arguement. A 3" #4 41 pellet buck load kicks a heck of a lot more than a 3" 410 load out of any combination of shoulder fired weapons. If you want to game the loads, then I will game the practice. I have a Stoger coach 12 gauge (IC & Mod) and a Rossi single 410 (Mod). I would like to see how many 3" shells you are willing to fire out of both. Would you be willing to let your daughter fire a 3" load from the Stoger? Both have the original hard plastic butt pad. I'll bet that you don't go too many shots with the 12 gauge. Like guns with like loads worst case scenario. Practice was a consideration in the OP

You also asked in post #64
Quote:
Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?
My answer was neither due to fringe hit / B zone at best. You'll get some pellets in the lung but that doesn't translate to an INSTANT STOP.

But in post #73 you stated
Quote:
At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.
Which suggests that you haven't patterned one or both.

Post #30
Quote:
One has a physical handicap for decades and having shot the .410 for decades is very good with it. While he regularly shoots trap in the low 90's, if he could shoot a 20 or a 12 I have not doubt he would be in the very high 90's.
And shooting a clay pigeon in trap is a heck of a lot harder than hitting a human at household distances.

So please tell us where have I been wrong in posts 17, 37, 51, 67, or 79? These are all of the posts where I have answered.

Last edited by SHR970; November 21, 2012 at 11:12 PM.
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Old November 22, 2012, 02:46 PM   #87
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SHR970,

I am not even taking the time to read your quibling nonsense and will only comment on two things.

The first is you continue to argue that neither is most likely to intantly stop the threat. Your lame retort is neither.

Quote:
My answer was neither due to fringe hit / B zone at best. You'll get some pellets in the lung but that doesn't translate to an INSTANT STOP.
I know and knew when the question was fabricated that neither was likely to put an immediat end to the threat, BUT THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION. The question was which of the two was more likely than the other.

The other item is quite simple. Have you ever pulled the trigger in a real world in-home encounter with one or multiple bad guys? I don't want any BS about training or video games.

Enjoy your thanksgiving. I get to mow the yards.
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Old November 22, 2012, 03:10 PM   #88
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Pfletch,

Quote:
8" off center will be a fringe or B Zone hit at best on the average man using any of the tight patterning loads. You might want to read this Boxotruth. The 20 yard test is quite revealing. If you take a garbage shot you will get garbage results."
Yep, and that is why I specified 8" off center. If the center of the pattern is a fringe hit, the periphery of the same pattern will be nearer to the target's midline (but still off). How much the pattern opens will determine to some extent how the percentile of pellets nearer to center. At 4 yards the load barely opens so the peripherals (not outliers) aren't that much closer to center mass than the center of the pattern.

That is why my question SPECIFIED 10 YARDS. At 10 yards an open cyllinder has begun to open (assuming we are not talking flight control). A fixed open cyllinder barrel is what I assume is being used for HD.

Just answer me this, different loads will have different patterns in different guns, but if that gun is an open cyllinder what size of a pattern would you expect at a range of 10 yards?
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Old November 22, 2012, 03:30 PM   #89
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Quote:
The other item is quite simple. Have you ever pulled the trigger in a real world in-home encounter with one or multiple bad guys?
In home: No

In real life: Yes. I was licensed and carried professionally in California from 1992 - 1999. During that time I had to drop the hammer on someone. Been through the Homicide investigation and DA review that went with it.

Drawn more than once during that time frame but only had to go all the way once.

And you?
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Old November 22, 2012, 04:08 PM   #90
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And you?
Not in combat and at less than 5 yards. I fired once, not hitting either perp, and it was over. Also PD invetigation, DA and charges. which were dismissed after court hearings. I can't or will not say more about the incident.

Sorry that I was in your face.

Last edited by TheKlawMan; November 22, 2012 at 10:56 PM.
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Old November 22, 2012, 06:08 PM   #91
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Here are two pics of a target with 12 Ga Federal LE #1 Buck out of a Wingmaster with an 18" Modified barrel:


1st Shot



Follow on 4 shots, rapid fire.



I can hit what I aim at with my 12 Ga and these rounds put quite a bit of lead where I aim. I'll stick with my 12. My wife is quite small in stature and has an 870 Express 20 youth next to her side of the bed loaded with #3 buck. It never even entered my thought process to go with a .410 as the 12 and 20 are both far more versatile and have a tremendous amount of ammunition available for whatever it is we are deciding to shoot at on any given day.
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Old November 22, 2012, 10:05 PM   #92
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To build off of my previous post, you don't see any "stray pellets" and inside of my house, if there is any over-penetration of an intruder I doubt the pellets will clear the next wall.

If a .410 is what you have, then use it. If a 12 is what you have, use it. I have a 12 and several 20's, a .410 is not in my future.
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Old November 23, 2012, 12:41 AM   #93
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Sorry that I was in your face.
Your question was fair; no apologies needed but accepted as offered. Hopefully no-one else here need go through the experience.
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Old November 24, 2012, 08:36 AM   #94
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This is what I find rather funny about the whole situtaion,the person that has given me the most guff about my choice in gauge of shotgun and ammo load out....MISSED

"Not in combat and at less than 5 yards. I fired once, not hitting either perp, and it was over. Also PD invetigation, DA and charges. which were dismissed after court hearings. I can't or will not say more about the incident."

Where did those pellets end up or do you want to thump your chest some more mr. expert?

Because unlike you I don't miss when the adrenaline is going,that is when I'm at my best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YSh1-XuUKE

Last edited by Pfletch83; November 24, 2012 at 09:00 AM.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:34 AM   #95
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Where is Dave when we need him?
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:34 AM   #96
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Amen!
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Old November 24, 2012, 11:29 AM   #97
Pfletch83
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Hey it wouldn't have been like this if Klawman had knocked off the bs.

He asked for it he got it.

I'm not going to molly coddle someone that is giving me the third degree over a simple differnance of opinion.

I'm also not going to project my own faults onto someone else.
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Old November 24, 2012, 12:02 PM   #98
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Pfletch83: You are stepping over the line here.

Klawman and I had some heated disagreement too, but I also know it takes a bigger man to state what he did. He didn't lie about or sugarcoat his experience. His statements and beliefs are borne from HIS personal experience; my statements are borne from mine.

Unless you know the circumstances or have been in a SHTF situation yourself you may wish to tone it down and drop the neener neener attitude. It seriously lessens your credibility and makes you come off as a mall ninja, tactical Tommy, or armchair commando.

There are plenty of documented cases where LEO's have pumped dozens of rounds out at close to contact distances and missed a whole bunch. It happens when you get the adrenaline dump. Unless you have been on the business end of deadly force you may wish to moderate your comments. Otherwise, feel free to share YOUR experience with us.

Edit to add: Up Close Gunfight. It may be handguns but goes to the point.

Last edited by SHR970; November 24, 2012 at 12:16 PM.
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Old November 24, 2012, 12:12 PM   #99
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Okay then here goes...

An ex girlfriend pulled one of my own weapons on my mother,I got between the two,she kept the loaded Glock 17 trained on my chest,I gave her two warnings to stow it.

She didn't listen and I then grabbed the slide pressed it out of battery with my left hand,hit the mag release with my right hand, then sat her down on the couch.

No one died,no one was hurt,no stray shots were fired,end of story.

anything else?
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Old November 24, 2012, 12:28 PM   #100
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There shouldn't be anything else. This thread outlived it's usefulness many post ago and now is just burning up bandwidth with insults.
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