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Old November 10, 2012, 10:49 AM   #26
OkieCruffler
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It has nothing to do with if the .410 can perform or not, it has everything to do with will you (or whoever chooses one) will practice enough with it to hit with those loads. The OP is recomending the .410 to inexperienced shotgunners to me thats a pretty big stretch.
And if anyone is contacting the FBI for being a "Ballistics savant" it should be you so they can start arming their agents with .410's. Don't try to snark the snarker.
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Old November 10, 2012, 10:53 AM   #27
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That was funny - I'm designating it for FBI entry duty.
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Old November 10, 2012, 02:48 PM   #28
TheKlawMan
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OkieCruffler, I never made it clear, but that is what bothers me about the OP's position on what a great defensive tool the .410 is. I don't want first time shotgunners buying his great defensive tool. Even if one becomes very proficient with the .410, I think a larger gauge is more likely to get the job done.

Per AMMUNITION FOR THE SELF-DEFENSE FIREARM by "Anonymous" published by Chuck Hawks at http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm :

Quote:
The .410 is only a half-way decent manstopper with slugs . . . There are some odd buckshot loads for the .410 (with three 000 pellets) and I advise you to ignore them. . . .

Last edited by TheKlawMan; November 10, 2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Old November 10, 2012, 03:02 PM   #29
jmortimer
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^ Worthless article by "Anonymous" relying on Marshall and Sanow and way short on facts. Far better information is available including objective ballistic testing which I linked.
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Old November 10, 2012, 04:03 PM   #30
TheKlawMan
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The introduction of one of the aricles you linked provides that :

[QUOTE]One of the smallest shotguns available, the .410 Bore should be considered among the lowest-performing shotguns for hunting and self-defense. . . . using buckshot or a limited-expansion slug the .410 Bore can be relied upon to stop an attacker given greater than ordinarily careful shot placement.[/QUOTE]

So you are recommending the use of one of the lowest-perfoeming shotguns for self-defense?

You continue to overlook the risks incumbent on the use of over penetrating slugs in a home defense environment.

I have some buddies that shoot the .410. One has a physical handicap for decades and having shot the .410 for decades is very good with it. While he regularly shoots trap in the low 90's, if he could shoot a 20 or a 12 I have not doubt he would be in the very high 90's. BigJim shoots a .410, when he wants to punish himself, and I don't think of him as a poor shot. Of course it is difficult for a little guy like Jim to handle anything more than a .410.
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Old November 10, 2012, 06:03 PM   #31
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^ I thought you checked out on this thread a few posts ago. Between you and Mr. Okie I might have to check out and say Uncle. I'm wrong about 800 to 900 ft lbs of energy and 5 .36 caliber balls that go 20" in ballistic gelatin in one shot. I'm wrong about the Brenneke slug that out penetrates 10mm HPs. I like the balance of low recoil and the terminal ballistics. But I digress, again.
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Old November 11, 2012, 12:04 AM   #32
idek
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In this little debate, I feel like I've been in the "I don't think the .410 is a terrible idea, but I'll stick with my 12 gauge" camp.

But trying to be objective about it, I toyed around with some of the numbers. The purpose isn't necessarily to compare it directly to a 12 gauge, but rather to think of the .410's merits in their own right. I'm basing it all on the Winchester load jmortimer linked.

First off, I wanted to know how much a 000 buck ball weighed (they don't put that information on buckshot boxes after all). I don't have 000 balls laying around, so I figured it mathematically. A standard 000 ball should be .36" in diameter, which would yield a volume around .400cc. Multiplied by the standard density of lead and then converting to grains puts us right at 70 grains per pellet.

At the listed velocity of 1135 fps, each pellet would have 200 ft/lbs of energy.
*I believe jmortimer cited 900 or 800 total, which would actually put each pellet at 160-180 ft/lbs. Maybe those were based on the energy farther down range. Or maybe the actual velocity is less than stated on the box. Or maybe the balls aren't quite 70 grains.

Whatever the case, for comparison, an 95-grain .380acp bullet at 955 fps has 192 ft/lbs of energy.

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that the .410 Winchester load is like hitting a target with five .380acp bullets at once. The 70 grain balls have a smaller diameter, less momentum, poorer sectional density, and NO type of bullet design. A true bullet can be designed for a desired balance of penetration and expansion, to destroy or disrupt an optimal amount of tissue and dump all its energy into a target. A spherical projectile can't really be tweaked to optimize the damage it causes.

Nonetheless, 160-200 ft/lbs of energy per ball is a significant amount, and maybe we could say shooting the .410 000 load is a little like shooting a target with five LRN .380 bullets.


I haven't seen anyone's results from patterning the .410 000 load, but from what I've read/heard, the patterns get ugly by 20 yards, but I've seen claims of 4" patterns at 7 yards out of a long gun, which is probably good enough for HD purposes.


Moving on, I was curious about how recoil would really come out (mathematically). I decided to check out Federal's 00 (9 pellet) reduced recoil 12 gauge load while I was at it. (I chose the reduced recoil version because its velocity is very similar to the .410 Winchester load)

- The weight of shot from the .410 load is about 350 grains. Weight of shot from the 12 gauge load is about 492 grains.
- I don't know the exact amount of powder used, but based on comparable reloading data, I estimated the .410 uses 15 grains of powder while the 12 gauge uses 25 grains.
- Velocities: 1135 fps for the .410; 1145 fps for the 12 gauge.
- For gun weight, I used Mossberg 500 specs: 6 pounds for the .410; 7.5 pounds for the 12 gauge.

Based on those figures entered into the Handloads.com recoil calculator, the .410 load showed 11.04 ft/lbs of free recoil, while the 12 gauge showed 18.59 ft/lbs of free recoil. In this case, the .410 has about 60% as much recoil as the 12-gauge.

It is worth noting, however, that many gas-operated 12-gauge may reduce felt recoil by about a third, which would make the perceived kick of the reduced recoil 12-gauge load similar to the Winchester .410 load while still throwing 40% more lead at the target. (Semi-auto .410s aren't much of an option)

In the end, my opinions are still about the same. I don't think the .410 is a terrible idea, but I'll stick with my 12 gauge ...not because I think I'm a big tough guy, but because I'm very familiar with it and prefer the greater number of projectiles per shot (ideally, 15 pellets of #1). Plus I have a recoil reducing stock that negates much of that issue.

However, for anyone wanting wanting something lighter, quieter, and softer kicking, the .410 with Winchester 000 ammo seems like a legit option.

Last edited by idek; November 11, 2012 at 01:22 AM.
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Old November 11, 2012, 01:34 AM   #33
biohazurd
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I wouldnt feel under gunned with a 410. I stash a mossberg 500 .410 with a pistol grip in my car sometime. Shooting the 12 with just pistol grip is brutal but the 410 is fun to shoot and suprisingly accurate at short range.
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Old November 11, 2012, 02:34 AM   #34
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@Theklawman

I can understand that you think more is better and in some cases I'll agree with you.

But with one you have to take the other.

What good is an ounce of lead at close range if the targeted threat isn't hit?

The user needs to learn how their scattergun will act no matter the gauge.

Also keep in mind that others in a family unit need to learn how to use the same HD weapon as the man of the house,and which would be easier to handle for a child a 12 gauge or a .410,what about an elderly family member,or the lady of the house that might not be thrilled about getting knocked around?
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Old November 11, 2012, 04:17 AM   #35
TheKlawMan
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Go back and read what I have posted and I clearly acknowledged that there is a place for the .410. The problem is your claim that it was a great tool, when it isn't unless for reasons you are limited to one. If handling recoil is the problem, how does a gas operated 20 gauge semi stack up against a pump action .410 in the felt recoil department? Why would you think that a .410 would be more likely to hit a target than a 20 or a 12? As for the over penetration issue, I see you still won't confront it.

I am only on line this late becasue I had some thing a bit more important to do. The fact is that the .410 is generally a very poor choice for home defense.

If a young child, a woman, or an elderly person ever has to use a shotgun for Self Defense, I submit they are a lot better off with a 20 gauge auto loader than a pump .410. Now I have to get some sleep as I am taking my 5'3" daughter to the range to shoot my 12 gauge 870 (for which I have prepared some 7/8 ounce loads).
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Old November 11, 2012, 06:10 AM   #36
Pfletch83
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@ Klawman

I have stated that #4 Buck from any gauge will be more than enough for home defense.

I stated that '000' buck has a likely chance of punching through the threat.

I also said that the '000' load is more for front/back yard ranged defense (in other words for use outside the home).

as for the latest news on the little shotgun that can...seems to be a new round from hornady looks to be a better buck and "ball" load than the PDX-1 .410 from Winchester *I just hope it can be used in shotguns as well as the revolvers*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtdYVk4ugHc
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Old November 11, 2012, 01:41 PM   #37
SHR970
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Quote:
TheKlawMan originally wrote:You continue to overlook the risks incumbent on the use of over penetrating slugs in a home defense environment.
A true statement to be considered for any ammo choice.

Since we are looking at 410 penetration vis a vis a 12 gauge, how about we look at the fact that the Federal LE127 00 ALSO penetrated ~20" as tested by Brassfetcher. This is one of the loads that so many on this forum are fond of. Federal Premium #1 buck ran from ~15-17.5" too. So for all those who would only look at the data point for the 410 ammo to discredit its use without looking at the data for the 12 gauge, you are doing yourself a disservice or engaging in cognitive dissonance.

Now as far as spread is concerned....at 7 yards you need to have your muzzle on target; pointing in the general direction doesn't cut the mustard. That holds true for a 12 gauge, a 410 bore, and everything in between.

On a parting note, I have noticed the trend over the last decade to make the mighty 12 gauge perform more like the smaller bores in both payload and velocity. If the smaller bores are so inferior, why all the effort to emulate the smaller slower payloads?

Last edited by SHR970; November 11, 2012 at 10:47 PM.
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Old November 11, 2012, 03:30 PM   #38
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The reduced recoil slugs and buckshot that are not hard cast penetrate better than "full recoil loads."

Last edited by jmortimer; November 11, 2012 at 05:22 PM.
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Old November 11, 2012, 04:55 PM   #39
TheKlawMan
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Quote:
how about we look at the fact that the Federal LE127 00 ALSO penetrated ~20" as tested by Brassfetcher.
First, the LE127 to my knowledge is a general law enforcement load not specifically designed for HD

Which is why the first shells in my HD tube are Remington Ultra Home Defense high density BB loads and the last three are Federal Premium Personal Defense 00 (similar to LE127 but FPS is only 1145 FPS compared to 1325 FPS for the LE127). Then, if the Chinese Red Gaurd attacks along with the Cuban International Zombie Brigade I have an ample supply of slugs - ALL 12 Gauge.

I am amazed that anyone continues to argue the superiority of the .410. Their arguement boils down at best to it will get the job done if accurately delivered. The same is true of the .22 and I suppose of a rock if slung with the skill of David at Goliath. Ask yourself which load is most likely to do the job if delivered with the same degree of accuracy; the 12, 20, or the .410.
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Old November 11, 2012, 05:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
I also said that the '000' load is more for front/back yard ranged defense (in other words for use outside the home).
Eventually when you began to back pedal on your original position which was that "The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool". To most of us, that means home defense and home defense confrontations most often occur inside the home. You only talked about triple ought's over penetration well AFTER I brought up the concerns with over penetration.
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Old November 11, 2012, 07:58 PM   #41
Pfletch83
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At the same degree of accuracy?

All three will with the right loads.
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Old November 11, 2012, 08:19 PM   #42
TheKlawMan
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WRONG. Unless by the "right loads" you mean load them all with the equivalent of a .410 shotshell.
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Old November 11, 2012, 08:27 PM   #43
Pfletch83
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@ Theklawman...

By the "right loads" I mean the same type of pellets.

How did you not understand that?
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Old November 11, 2012, 08:42 PM   #44
TheKlawMan
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So you really think that if you deliver a load of ten 000 Buck Shot pellets or a load of three in a .410 at a point centered 9 inches to the right of a BG's cener mass you are just as likely to stop them dead in their tracks assuming he is shot at a distance of 7 yards. I think not, but that roughly half your pellets are going to miss vitals and you may only get a single hit. You are likely to get three or perhaps 4 hits on vitals with the 12 gauge. I assume that both pattern over an area of about the same radius.
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:04 PM   #45
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The following is a from a thread started by the owner of Beartooth Bullets entitled "Teeth for the .410 Bore" with 4 00 buckshot balls:
"This load. out of the .410 shotguns we own here, will produce a neat, square pattern that is about five inches square with the four buckshot when patterning at 35 yards! *Not bad for a little .410 2 1/2" shotshell. *This load I described punches out the bore at about 1220 fps from our shotguns. *More fire under the charge just blows the pattern apart in my experience.

Now, about on target performance! *This load is really amazing when all four of those 44 grian pills impact a 4"-5" area at once on something the size of a 70-90 pound feral dog! *Out to 45 yards (farthest tested), it is lights out! *No recovered buckshot (remember these are fairly hard), and boiler room hits create nearly instant incapacitation, even on adrenalized critters of this size."
http://www.shootersforum.com/shotgun...re-shotun.html
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:12 PM   #46
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Here is review from Cabelas for the Winchester Super X 3 pellet 000 with Saiga
"5 out of 5
Mooseeyes
Sonora, CA
Age:65 and over
Gender:Male
Would you recommend this product to a friend? Yes
Great load. . .and not just for "The Judge"!
July 2, 2011
I bought some of these in 3", to use and test in my wife's house gun. . .a Saiga semi-auto, Russian made on an AK action, using the 10 round mags. Out at the range, at 30 feet (what I figure to be the max. distance for inside the house defense), these are the "bomb"!
Very tight pattern. . .inside the size of a large orange! I am ordering another 100 rounds of the 3" 000 buck. The hole put into the paper at the range is the size of a .45, and they plum punch out the 1/4" press board target backing. These WILL get the job done!"
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:20 PM   #47
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jm, I know you are more intelligent than this. Almost anything will do the job if delivered with precision. The problem is that in an emergency that may take place in the dark of night and with one full of adrenaling it isn't so easy to deliver a pricise shot and that is why the 12 or 20 gauge is a much more prudent tool than the .410 unless for some reason one is limited to its use.

What I have tried to explain is that given a less then precise shot, the odds of delivering a threat ending punch is more likely with the larger gauge. If you get half your .410's five pellets outside the vital area you may get 2 or three inside it, but with a 12 you have ten pellets (assuming Winchester Magnum Super X 3" 000 BS) and you are likely to get two more hits into vitals.
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:24 PM   #48
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This is unbelievable. Do what you want.
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:25 PM   #49
Pfletch83
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I remember hearing about an officer involved shooting that happened at around 15 feet inside a parking garage,the officer was using a department issued 12 gauge with 9-pellet '00 buck.

The officer unloaded every round he had in the shotgun,before going to his handgun,the whole time shots were being fired the BG was advancing on the officer,the perp then gave up when the officer drew his handgun.

All pellets hit their mark in the perp's upper body.

After all was said and done the officer admitted that he should have went for a head shot,the perp died on the way to the hospital.

So please oh wise one tell me again how the 12 is so much better than any other gauge.
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Old November 11, 2012, 10:08 PM   #50
Pfletch83
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@Theklawman

Also if you go back through this thread you will see that I mentioned the use of #4 buck in post #10 and backed up afore mentioned post with #18


Just admitt it,you hate the .410 because it's a .410 and spouting bs some how makes you feel better about yourself.

Also let it be known that I said the .410 was a great defensive tool,I never claimed it was the best defensive tool (Because the "best" is too subjective from person to person and to say that it's the best would in fact be a false claim)

Last edited by Pfletch83; November 11, 2012 at 10:17 PM.
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