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Old November 8, 2012, 07:40 PM   #26
fastbolt
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I started my LE career carrying an issued 6-shot revolver. I carried another 6-shot revolver off-duty, or, when I wanted to carry greater capacity, I carried my 7+1 Commander. I eventually carried one or another 5-shot snub off-duty (.38 Spl, .357 Magnum & .44 Special).

After carrying one or another 9, .40 & .45 over the remainder of my career, I finished my career carrying an issued 7+1 capacity .45 compact ... and more often than not I was carrying a 5-shot J-frame off-duty. Go figure.

In my retirement I may still choose to carry one of my various 9's, .40's or .45's, depending on the circumstances and anticipated situations, but more often than not ... it's one of my 5-shot snubs.

I must have some level of confidence in them for retirement CCW usage. When it comes to 5-shot snubs I own 7 S&W J-frames and a Ruger SP101 DAO.

I do own a number of 6-shot revolvers, with barrel lengths running from 2 1/2" out to 7 1/2", but it's the 5-shot wheelguns that see most actual carry usage.

If I were to return to active duty and was told I'd be carrying an issued 6-shot revolver, it wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep.

Being able to carry one of those 8-shot .357 Magnum revolvers being made by S&W nowadays, with the lightweight frames, as a duty weapon? Even better.

Mindset, skillset, experience, tactics ... and sufficiently frequent proper practice to maintain skillset, familiarity & handling/manipulation under demanding conditions.

The particular handgun, caliber & ammunition capacity considerations fall under the "equipment" consideration, which aren't necessarily at the top of my list of concerns.
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:43 PM   #27
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The best argument for hi-capacity is,,,

The best argument for hi-capacity is,,,
The opening scene of "The Wind and the Lion",

The scene is the early 1900's Morocco,,,
Bad guy arab storms into the compound of Eden Perdicaris,,,
Good guy british gent stands up and pulls his revolver from a shoulder holster.

He very methodically shoots six raiders off of their horses,,,
Then you hear, "click-click, oh damn!" just before he gets his head sliced open.

Okay this is meant to be humorous,,,
Because I started reading this thread yesterday afternoon,,,
And just yesterday evening the DVD of the movie hit my mailbox from Netflix.

Now having said that, I often carry a 5-shot S&W Model 36,,,
But I don't think I'm going to have to face a large group of raiding horsemen either.

Perhaps I should always have my carry briefcase with me,,,
In it's internal holster is a fully loaded CZ-75B,,,
With a spare 16 round magazine as well.

Aarond

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Old November 9, 2012, 01:05 PM   #28
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I read someplace that most gunfights are over in 3 rounds. That being said you have enough ammo in your six-shooter to likely go thru 2 gunfights before you even would have to reload.

I usually carry a 1911 with 7+1 or on some days a Smith 36 with just 5 rounds, feel comfortable with either one.
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Old November 9, 2012, 01:14 PM   #29
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Posted by Remington74 ...feel comfortable with either one.
Unless one has an informed, objective basis for one's decision--and that should include some high performance defensive pistol shooting training and some analysis of handgun wounding effectiveness and even better, experience in simulations using simunitions--how "comfortable" one "feels is meaningless.
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Old November 9, 2012, 04:43 PM   #30
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As for those 7 or 8 shot revolvers...they scare me. Spent too many years with my 6 shot Model 19 Combat Magnum to ever feel comfortable with more rounds in a wheel gun. I would likely shoot six and reload.
No need to be frightened. If six rounds are plenty to survive a "typical" gun fight, there'd be no reason to reload in the first place. So that seventh unfired round that got dumped inadvertently would be like teats on a boar hog. Unless, of course, the gun fight you found yourself in proved to be atypical...
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Old November 9, 2012, 11:13 PM   #31
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So, my carry revolver only has a capacity of five rounds. Am i missing out?

I do carry at least one full speed-strip though.
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Old November 10, 2012, 04:06 AM   #32
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Get a single action and carry a few loaded cylinders.

If you prefer cartridge guns consider a double action and speed loaders.

I have quite a few speed loaders, but they all stay at the house when I go out. If I had a single action the size of a J-frame I'd be tempted to carry it on occasion.
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Old November 10, 2012, 05:15 AM   #33
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The OP has asked this same question, phrased slightly differently, with threads he started at least three times. This is a revolver forum, what exactly do you expect in terms of replies ?

The pros and cons of revolvers as carry guns have been listed. Youre a pilot. You have to make decisions. List the advantages & disadvantages and choose.

If you cant choose between them, . . . get a Glock or an M&P, & a S&W J frame as a back up gun (BUG) and carry them both. Many do this.
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Old November 10, 2012, 11:34 AM   #34
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It depends....If you are a clerk behind a counter and a couple of perps cme in with guns- a 15 round semi-auto let's you dive around a corner and start blazing away. The hope is that if they realize you have that much fire power they may run off. I think a 6 shot revolver would then be at a disadvantage. On the other hand if you are out in the woods and want protection against 4 or 2 legged varmits- where only hits count- then a 6" revolver in 357 or 44 mag might be the ticket. So... it depends.
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Old November 10, 2012, 11:39 AM   #35
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This is the third thread in a total of your 6 posts you started about is revolver capacity enough. Clearly you don't feel comfortable with the limited capacity of a revolver and shouldn't carry one because of it. No amount of threads you make is going to change your mind.
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Old November 10, 2012, 12:42 PM   #36
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No matter the OP's intentions, this is one of the best treatises I've found on the issue of 'capacity'. From Michael de Bethencourt's blog:

http://snubtraining.com/blog/?cat=288

Snub Training – The snub and multiple attackers
January 20th, 2010

Shane wrote:

My main question is, with the rise of multiple attackers being the norm, is the snubby still a viable tool for these ever increasing challenges?

Dear Shane:

I hope this note finds you well.

Thank you for the great question.

If I may restate and paraphrase it, you’re asking: “Do I believe that the snubby possess a sufficient round count to be practical against multiple attackers?”

I would say the answer is (in order): No, Maybe and Yes.

Answer 1: No – I don’t know if the snub is or isn’t enough gun for some/most/all multiple attacker assaults because I don’t know the; Who, What, When, Where, How, How many, How willing, What tactics, etc. of the all the parties involved. But if I have to assume the worst case scenario – An unskilled neophyte vs. a skilled, motivated gang then I would have to say “No.”

Answer 2: Maybe – If I know something of the defender and something about the bad guy(s) I might be able to say “Maybe.”

Since everyone loves *antidotal* stories let me give you two to support (not prove) the point:

Officer X is moving his prisoner out of the housing area to the PD car. He is armed with one six-shot revolver. Friends of the bad guy show up and surround Officer X. Seventeen by some estimates. The “leader” of this ad hock gang steps in Officer X’s way and informs him that a) He (Officer X) “Ain’t taking the guy anywhere.” and b) They have more guys than he has rounds in his gun.

What would you do? You have zero seconds. Times up. Well Officer X draws his gun, points it in the bigmouth and tells him “Yea, and the first five are for you.” Now what you need to know about Officer X is he is a shooter. A man 100% committed to shooting bad guy(s) the instant he know there isn’t another option. There is absolutely no “maybe” in anything Officer X says or does. Two seconds after the gun came out Officer X just walked his prisoner on by. Now what won the fight, the round count or the man? Now let me ask you a trick question, lets say all 17 pulled guns on Officer X. What would he have done? What would you have done? You have zero seconds. Times up. Officer X would have shot that one guy in the face. Five times. Just like he said he would. Officer X’s secret (I believe) is that he knows that you DON’T fight 3 or 5 or 15 or what ever number of guys. You can’t. You fight ONE guy, one at a time. You may end up in 3 or 5 or X number of fights in a very short time period but you do NOT fight multiple guys a once.

Second event – Officer Z is in the car doing paperwork. He has a six-shot revolver in his waist band and a vest under his uniform. Four gang bangers come up on each corner of the car. By available accounts there was one pistol per bad guy. The first bad guy to get to the car sticks his gun in the open window and starts pulling the trigger. As the bad guy’s hand is coming into the window Officer Z sees what’s coming and shoves his gun out the window, forearm passing forearm and starts pulling his trigger. So how do you think this is going to finish up – One guy with six-rounds vs. four guys with six to sixty (?) rounds? You have zero seconds. Times up. Let’s pause to ask you a question. BEFORE Officer Z started pulling the trigger how many bad guys was he facing? Four? One? You tell me. 1/100 of a second after he started pulling the trigger, how many bad guys was he facing? I’ll tell you. ZERO. They came in for an ambush. They screwed off at Mach-3 when it became a gunfight, and they didn’t sign up for no gunfight. So …

Since I know something about both Officers X and Z (I worked with both of them years ago) I can say that for them a low round count weapon can be a viable weapon against multiple attackers … sometimes.

Answer 3: But if you are asked me (Michael de Bethencourt) if I think the snub is enough gun for multiple attackers (define “multiple”) coming against me (Alone, with neither friends nor family in tow) I would say (drum roll please ….) “It’s a nonsense question. Right up there with “Do you still beat your wife?”

Here’ are my thoughts, valid only for me but I’ll share them anyway.

1 – No one can win a gunfight against multiple shooters so I pre-reject the concept of facing multiple shooters. Faced with multiple attackers, I plan to pick the one guy that I am reasonable certain I can stop (We don’t kill – we shoot to stop, right? … rrrright) and I make it VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE FOR HIM to try and kill me. If the gun goes dry I use my knife. If the knife breaks off I use my teeth. I have only one rule – Start one job and see it through – The universe will have to offer someone else the leftovers. Multi tasking doesn’t work in business or in gunfighting.

2 – Cull the herd, divide and conquer, call it what you will. In a real fight … most of the time … groups are only tough because they are anonymous. If you survive the gunfight with the one (1) guy God himself assigned to you then look around. IF there are still bag guys and IF they are still trying to kill you and IF you’re are still alive go back for “seconds.” But that is a lot of “IF’s.”

3 – Any gun you actually have-when-you-need it (even the lowly, low round count 2-inch snub) beats the entire collection of high round count guns you don’t have when you need them. So … since I carry a 2-inch snub year round, and IF I could not take Andy Stanford/Ed Lovettes’ advice to Evade, Avoid or Escape, and am forced into the fight with it (my snub) it would have to be a “viable” gun because it is the gun I will be using.

My advice on self-defense handguns comes down to this: Pick out that “minimum” gun you are absolutely certain you will be carrying when it is absolutely impractical and uncomfortable to carry any other make/model/style gun. Train with it like you will be facing three attackers. Learn to draw quickly, hit what you are aiming at quickly, learn to shoot on the move and learn to reload quickly with the spare ammo and the ammo carrier you actually carry. Train hard – its fun to do so it anyway. Then if you have to face one guy followed by one guy followed by one guy all one-after-the-other then you might just pull it off.

Anyway, that’s my plan.

Of course … I could be wrong.

Thank you again for the great question.

Fell free to share this with friends if you think they would be interested.

I hope that helped a little.

Yours,

Michael de Bethencourt
SnubTraining@hotmail.com
www.SnubTraining.com
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Old November 10, 2012, 03:12 PM   #37
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In my opinion, its o.k. for someone to ask questions - - and I think people here are trying to help the OP. But still, - - -

When it absolutely comes down to it . . . there's no 100% answer that anyone can give. it all depends on your circumstances and the unpredictable future.

As an example, one of the reason I like revolvers is I spend a lot of time in the mountain backcountry. Sometimes I'm in territory where big 4 legged critters are, and I prefer having the power of any one of a number of various .44 or .45 caliber chambered revolvers on my hip. Under those circumstances, raw power and bullet design (including flat meplat wide nosed hardcast ) trump capacity.
If while out in the wilds, I happen to run into some hidden 'zombie' filled meth lab, I'd probably wished I had the high cap Glock instead.
You place your bets and take your chances. (And remember that a sidearm is only what you use to fight your way back to your real gun - - a rifle !)
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Old November 10, 2012, 03:24 PM   #38
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You know, for practicality's sake, there's no way to arrive at a definitive "answer" for this sort of question (as has been intimated by more than one person responding).

Trying to focus on sheer weapon capacity can distract someone from the arguably more critical factors that ought to be considered.

Things like the user's - knowledge (laws, tactics, etc); training; physical condition (including any disabilities, injuries or other restrictions); practice regimen; skillset; familiarity with the weapon (manipulation, maintenance, appropriate carry method, etc); experience and mindset.

Time and time again, being able to make accurate and effective hits on the intended threat targets was the one thing that stood out most in the minds of several cops who have been involved in shooting incidents to whom I've listened.

Not caliber. Not capacity. Not handgun type. Not brand of weapon or ammunition.

Being able to make accurate and effective hits on their attackers.

Shooting incidents are often described as unexpected, dynamic, rapidly evolving and chaotic events. Often occurring in bad lighting conditions. Physically and mentally stressful. Creating a fear-induced hormonal stress response (different than just running around a track or doing pushups and physically taxing the muscles).

Capacity? Sure. Something to think about ... after other critical influences and conditions have been considered.

Properly supervised Sim gun/marking cartridge training, and Force-on-force training (again, properly supervised) can help reveal things about training and skillsets ... and whether or not someone is able to effectively use good tactics when caught by surprise and put under stress ... and perhaps help someone determine how well they can access "ingrained" training, as well as their decision-making abilities and skills under stress.

There's still something to be said for having a solid foundation in a handgun skillset, though, whether it be for semiauto pistol or DA/DAO revolver ... or both (if you're lucky and able to develop and maintain skills using both platforms). You have to have something to build on, after all.

Ammunition capacity is just ... well, available ammunition capacity. Doesn't mean it'll be lawfully, appropriately, safely, accurately or effectively used.

How much capacity is "enough" when it comes to a gas tank in a car, truck, tractor, motorcycle, boat or airplane? Does whatever capacity you think is "enough" going to guarantee the operator is going to be able to complete their trip, not make mistakes, or be able to properly respond to exigencies or emergencies?

I've often thought that a dismaying number of folks nowadays sort of look at having "hi-cap" mags in the same way some folks used to look at having a rabbit's foot on a key chain when I was a youngster ...
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Old November 10, 2012, 05:01 PM   #39
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Being able to make accurate and effective hits on their attackers.
But, of course, this is true no matter how many bullets you have on board. Just because you have a high-capacity pistol doesn't mean that you necessarily have to expend bullets without achieving good target acquisition. I think it's an over-used mythology that people armed with high-capacity weapons are predisposed to spray the landscape wantonly with lead. "Accurate and effective hits on attackers" can be done just as effectively with a Glock as it can be with a Chiefs Special. It all comes down to training, practice and good judgement-and it's up to each individual person to acquire these attributes and to make their own decisions as to which handgun best fits their own unique circumstances and skill level.
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Old November 10, 2012, 06:52 PM   #40
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'Jelly' Bryce did fine with a 6 shot S&W .357 (and in MANY shootouts.)

Jim Cirillo did fine with a 6 shot .38 spl. many times (and also in MANY shootouts.)

Yet in the NYPD (same outfit Cirillo was with) they fired 50,60,70, and yes over 100 rounds at attackers, some of which were unarmed, and still didn't do well (and yes, reloaded in the process.)

In Dallas cops fired over 100 rounds at one guy and didn't seriously injure him.

As Fastbolt posted above, 'Being able to make accurate and effective hits on their attackers.' is what counts.

Simple as that.

So don't think your 15+ shooter will solver all your problems. In fact, they make make them worse if you rely on capacity and neglect to practice ALOT.

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Old November 10, 2012, 08:39 PM   #41
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Now I'm worried as well like a couple of others who posted. My LCR only carries five . . . . Maybe if I shoot twice as good as the other guy, it will seem like ten?
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Old November 10, 2012, 09:01 PM   #42
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I think it's an over-used mythology that people armed with high-capacity weapons are predisposed to spray the landscape wantonly with lead.
Perhaps.

It's just that I've listened to a fair number of cops who had expended anywhere from several rounds to a couple of mag loads, during a shooting, and relate how they'd realized at some point in their respective incidents they'd needed to start aiming and get accurate & effective hits if they were going to stop their attackers and survive.

As a firearms instructor who's worked primarily with LE, but also non-LE citizens at times, I've seen at least my fair share of folks using hi-cap pistols fire faster than they could either properly index or align their pistols for accurate sighted fire.

I'm not disparaging hi-cap pistols (or even pistols with 7-8 round mags ). I carried an issued hi-cap alloy wondernine back when "hi-cap" merely meant a magazine held more rounds than a Colt Model O pistol (and you could find both the Browning HP and S&W M59 in the hands of both cops and lawfully armed private citizens). Later on I carried an issued hi-cap .40 S&W for some years.

I do, however, miss the days when cops were taught to carefully aim their shots, using DA revolvers, and many were cognizant of having only 6 rounds at hand before reloading was necessary.

I just wish I saw more younger pistol shooters (before the days of service revolvers) making the effort to acquire the same solid handgun foundation skillset that I saw acquired by many revolvers shooters in years past. Nowadays you can ask some folks who have only shot hi-cap pistols to shoot for accuracy at 50 yards, and more often than not they look at you like you're asking the impossible, or speaking gibberish.
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Old November 10, 2012, 11:18 PM   #43
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I've seen at least my fair share of folks using hi-cap pistols fire faster than they could either properly index or align their pistols for accurate sighted fire.
That has everything to do with the training (or lack thereof) and absolutely nothing to do with whether the gun is a hi-cap pistol or a five-shot snub-nose.

Quote:
Nowadays you can ask some folks who have only shot hi-cap pistols to shoot for accuracy at 50 yards, and more often than not they look at you like you're asking the impossible, or speaking gibberish.
The same can be said for people shooting revolvers who haven't been made to practice at longer ranges with them. After our department (a rather large one) transitioned from revolvers to semi-autos (Smith third generation variants), our training retained the same regimen in terms of distances. Officers who were required to shoot at the fifty yard range with their "obsolete" revolvers had to qualify at the same distance with their "new" hi-cap pistols. Nothing of significance changed between the revolver and the semi-auto performances in terms of scores at the fifty yard targets.
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Old November 10, 2012, 11:26 PM   #44
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Wily William Hiccup did fine with a Navy 36 caliber and he couldn't reload it very fast no matter how many cylinders or speed strips he carried.

Only one possible solution to the man using a revolver and is afraid he will run out of shots before the bad guy does. Carry more than one gun. May I suggest something like these.



One on each hip, one in a shoulder holster, one in a boot, and one in your briefcase. Better make that brief case 50% larger and bullet proof. You will need something to hide behind while you are drawing another gun... and another...and another...and
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Old November 11, 2012, 12:37 AM   #45
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Old November 11, 2012, 12:21 PM   #46
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No doubt , all the smoke given off from the blackpowder revolvers will give you something to hide behind ! Aah yes , the stainless Ruger Old Army....why did I sell mine , why , why , why !
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Old November 11, 2012, 01:02 PM   #47
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Quote:
Quote:
I've seen at least my fair share of folks using hi-cap pistols fire faster than they could either properly index or align their pistols for accurate sighted fire.


That has everything to do with the training (or lack thereof) and absolutely nothing to do with whether the gun is a hi-cap pistol or a five-shot snub-nose.
Yep.

As long as the people actually make the effort to get that training, and maintain it ... and don't rely on the greater abundance of ammunition to offset any lesser amount of skill, training & practice.

I also agree that any lack of longer range shooting for training/quals among the younger shooters using issued pistols is probably the result of a lack of training to make them develop their fundamental handgunning skills in this regard, and then making them practice and demonstrate such skills. I've seen it still taught in the firearm instructor classes, so it's not like we're not capable of continuing to produce instructors that possess the skills and are able to teach them, right?

All this said, the only point proposed is that if newer shooters, who have never been exposed to the revolver's 5 or 6 round ammunition limitation, acquire a type of over-reliance or over-confidence of having hi-cap ammunition capacities at their disposal ... perhaps a segment of them might feel the availability of the increased ammunition capacity would offset any lack of skills development on their part. Definitely a training issue.

Unfortunately, I've even seen it happen with a small number of instructors who transitioned from revolvers to semiautos many years ago.

Having listened to cops express their realization that they needed to take time to make aimed shots during shooting incidents, even using hi-cap service pistols, skills development and maintenance (and mindset) are still important issues for us to address.

Considering I retired out while using an issued 7+1 capacity compact .45 service pistol, and others were using the full-size 8+1 service pistol, I'd not feel under-equipped if I were to return to service and given a 6-shot revolver ... or even one of those lightweight alloy 8-shot .357 Magnum revolvers.

I spent many years of my career carrying either a hi-cap 9mm or .40 S&W issued pistol, too.

After a while, when you've learned how a significant number of LE shootings involve the firing of 1, 2, 5, 6 or even 8 shots ... and that high round count shootings are seemingly among the newsworthy minority of shootings, or the result of multiple officers firing at the same time ... the 6 round capacity of revolver may not be quite so obsolete as some folks might think.
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Old November 11, 2012, 01:34 PM   #48
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That was a good post VictorLouis. I hadn't read that before.

After retiring from my department, where I spent my last 6 years as the chief firearms instructor, I ran my own firearms training business for 10 more years of being an instructor. What I always told all of my students, in uniform or not, was that the best gun in a gun fight is the one you have with you. If you won't carry your 16 shot, full size semi auto, why then it does you no good when the brown stuff hits the air circulation device. If you will only carry a 5-shot snubby, or a 6-shot 32 Auto then that will have to do. The real question is...will you?

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Old November 11, 2012, 03:40 PM   #49
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I believe that 6 is enough but...

...I purchased a S&W 686+ with 7 shot capacity. Can't help to have one more.
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Old November 11, 2012, 07:42 PM   #50
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If you are a body guard for a drug lord, door man at a biker bar, or guard at a crack house NO. A wheelie won't do the job. Other than that 99.999999999999999999999% you won't need more than 5-6.
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