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Old November 14, 2012, 01:30 AM   #101
Nanuk
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Because of this and the fact that I'm a fairly large individual myself (6'4" and 300+lbs) I would feel fairly confident in thinking that while I'm probably among the least likely to be attacked in the first place, should I have to actually use a gun in self-defense it would likely be against an attacker that is at least roughly equal in size to me, if not substantially larger.
http://www.policeone.com/training/vi...sford-incident

This constable was a big guy too.
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Old November 14, 2012, 02:12 AM   #102
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is 8 rounds enough

yes. make it work.
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Old November 14, 2012, 10:31 AM   #103
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Why 8? My pistol carries 8+1. And my pocket or belt carries 16 more in two convenient 8 round packages. If I had a revolver, I'd carry at least two more convenient packages containing 8(or 5 or 6 or however many fit) packages, plus maybe even some speed strips.
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Old November 14, 2012, 11:14 AM   #104
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Big guy - came up in Insights knife class. Instructor was a little guy. Student was big guy who said he didn't have much to worry about.

Teacher, with training knife, came close and 'stabbed' him in the stomach several times in a second or two. Said you can run into little crazy guys.

I worked on a case where a big guy got into an argument with a little old man. The latter took a paring knife (like to peel an apple) and stuck it into big guy's chest. Big guy was hit a magic spot and dropped stone cold dead. Little old man was on drugs.

8 is enough unless you run into 101 Dalmatians or 11 wild African Dogs.
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Old November 14, 2012, 12:22 PM   #105
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If the experts say to keep extra ammo on you for that "in case" moment why not have it already in your gun ready to use and have even more on hand in case?
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Old November 14, 2012, 12:42 PM   #106
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Because that extra ammo will be in a seperate magazine for the odd magazine issue...
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Old November 14, 2012, 01:30 PM   #107
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Speed-Loaders

Personally, I would feel just fine with a couple of speed-loaders (no different than a .45acp with an extra mag).
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Old November 14, 2012, 01:55 PM   #108
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I remember seeing a law enforcement study that said on average it required 2 hits to subdue most humans. In a real life situation most trained professionals would miss their moving target a little more than 60%. So you figure about 6 shots to hit your target the required number of times to subdue or kill. Since most people are not trained professionals nor have they been in real life gun fights odds would say you might need more than 8 especially of there is
More than one assailant. IMO.
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Old November 14, 2012, 03:22 PM   #109
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Quote:
I remember seeing a law enforcement study that said on average it required 2 hits to subdue most humans. In a real life situation most trained professionals would miss their moving target a little more than 60%. So you figure about 6 shots to hit your target the required number of times to subdue or kill. Since most people are not trained professionals nor have they been in real life gun fights odds would say you might need more than 8 especially of there is
More than one assailant. IMO.
I would have to agree. 90% of gun carrying public do not have enough training to get a high % of hits under stress.

8 would not even get some on a moving target. Yes a scary thought but true.
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Old November 14, 2012, 03:26 PM   #110
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Originally posted by Nanuk
Quote:
Quote:
Because of this and the fact that I'm a fairly large individual myself (6'4" and 300+lbs) I would feel fairly confident in thinking that while I'm probably among the least likely to be attacked in the first place, should I have to actually use a gun in self-defense it would likely be against an attacker that is at least roughly equal in size to me, if not substantially larger.

http://www.policeone.com/training/vi...sford-incident

This constable was a big guy too.
And he was also conducting traffic stops and searching for drugs too, none of which do I have plans to engage in. Constable Lunsford wasn't killed because he was a big guy, he was killed because he backed three dangerous men into a corner when he found the drugs they were smuggling. Because I'm not a cop, I'm not going to be backing anyone into a corner by searching for their drugs so, while tragic, the death of Constable Lunsford really means very little to me.

Originally posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Quote:
Big guy - came up in Insights knife class. Instructor was a little guy. Student was big guy who said he didn't have much to worry about.

Teacher, with training knife, came close and 'stabbed' him in the stomach several times in a second or two. Said you can run into little crazy guys.

I worked on a case where a big guy got into an argument with a little old man. The latter took a paring knife (like to peel an apple) and stuck it into big guy's chest. Big guy was hit a magic spot and dropped stone cold dead. Little old man was on drugs.
Well, I figure that any bullet that will work well on a big guy will most likely work just as well, if not better, on a little guy even if he is crazy.
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Old November 14, 2012, 04:37 PM   #111
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Didn't Dick Van Patten teach us anything? 8 is always enough!
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Old November 14, 2012, 06:21 PM   #112
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JimDandy

Didn't Dick Van Patten teach us anything? 8 is always enough!
For those <40yrs. old, that analogy just might not click--However, I got it !

-Cheers
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Old November 14, 2012, 07:01 PM   #113
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Hey! I'm under 40. To get back on topic though, if it's a revolver, I'd have speedloads in a belt pouch and maybe even a couple strips in my pocket. For a semi auto I'd have at least two magazines somewhere... I have a belt mountable magpouch that I stick in a cargo pants pocket rather than stick it on my belt.
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Old November 14, 2012, 07:07 PM   #114
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Because of this and the fact that I'm a fairly large individual myself (6'4" and 300+lbs) I would feel fairly confident in thinking that while I'm probably among the least likely to be attacked in the first place, should I have to actually use a gun in self-defense it would likely be against an attacker that is at least roughly equal in size to me, if not substantially larger.

http://www.policeone.com/training/vi...sford-incident

This constable was a big guy too.
And he was also conducting traffic stops and searching for drugs too, none of which do I have plans to engage in. Constable Lunsford wasn't killed because he was a big guy, he was killed because he backed three dangerous men into a corner when he found the drugs they were smuggling. Because I'm not a cop, I'm not going to be backing anyone into a corner by searching for their drugs so, while tragic, the death of Constable Lunsford really means very little to me.

Originally posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Quote:
Big guy - came up in Insights knife class. Instructor was a little guy. Student was big guy who said he didn't have much to worry about.

Teacher, with training knife, came close and 'stabbed' him in the stomach several times in a second or two. Said you can run into little crazy guys.

I worked on a case where a big guy got into an argument with a little old man. The latter took a paring knife (like to peel an apple) and stuck it into big guy's chest. Big guy was hit a magic spot and dropped stone cold dead. Little old man was on drugs.
Well, I figure that any bullet that will work well on a big guy will most likely work just as well, if not better, on a little guy even if he is crazy
It's not the big guys you have to worry about in general anyway. As a rule of thumb they have never had to fight much. Rule of thumb, as in not always the case. The little guys have not had the luxury of having an intimidating presence to back folks off. They might have an intimidating reputation, but you have to earn that one. If you are in a situation where some scrawny dude has no fear and won't back down you may well be in for a ride. The real big guy on the other hand might just reconsider once you do not kow tow to his mighty presence and he knows he may have to back up the check his mouth has been writing. This is only my personal experience however. Those little scrappy guys can be real trouble with a capital T.
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Old November 14, 2012, 07:08 PM   #115
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Eight is more than enough to give me peace of mind. I'm even comfortable with six.
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Old November 15, 2012, 12:26 AM   #116
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Enough is enough. Speed loaders or moon clips and some practice, you'll reload just as fast as you would with a magazine fed gun. 8 becomes 16, 16 becomes 24. More than enough. I have the TRR8 and I'm plenty comfortable with it on my nightstand.
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Old November 15, 2012, 01:10 AM   #117
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8 rounds will be enough if the circumstances of the shooting dictate that it will be enough. It's not possible to accurately say more than that.

However, it is possible to point out some things that will have absolutely no effect on whether 8 rounds is enough or not.

1. The shooter's preference in self-defense handguns. Liking revolvers or pocket pistols--even liking them a LOT--won't mean that the amount of ammunition in them is always sufficient to prevail in a self-defense encounter. There's no way what a shooter likes or prefers can possibly dictate the circumstances of a shooting such that it limits the number of rounds required to the number of rounds in the shooter's gun.

2. Whether or not the defender can reload quickly. Not even if the defender can reload as quickly with a revolver as an autopistol. If a reload is required to finish the encounter then 8 rounds was clearly not enough.

3. What gives the defender peace of mind. Being comfortable with the amount of ammo in the gun will have absolutely no effect on the circumstance of the shooting a defender is dealt. I know people who are comfortable with carrying no gun at all. A defender's comfort level won't preclude him from being in a shootout that calls for more rounds than his defense gun holds.

4. What the defender has used to adequately protect himself/herself in the past. There can be no guarantee that the next encounter will be like the last one.

5. Rationalizations provided to justify behavior or decisions already made for other reasons. People are amazingly adept at rationalizing the decisions they've already made or behavior that they've already chosen to engage in. Reasons provided as rationalization for the decision to carry a low-capacity defense handgun will not change the outcome or circumstances of a self-defense encounter. For example: John decides to carry a pocket pistol because it very conveniently fits in his pocket easily and doesn't poke him like a larger pistol carried in an IWB does. His ability to come up with other reasons to justify/rationalize his decision won't have any effect on whether or not the capacity of the pistol will actually be sufficient for the self-defense encounters he will be faced with.

I'm sure there are more, but that's a good start.
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Old November 15, 2012, 02:18 AM   #118
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Is 8 enough, 8 well placed bullets will do wonders. What any person that plans on defending themselves with a handgun needs to know how to shot their chosen gun. They need to know how to do a combat reload, they need to know how shot accurately. When a person decides to buy a gun for self defense or home protection they need to get good training. The way to improve your rate of survival is training and planning. I carry a S&W 686+ that 7 rounds of 38+P 125 grain of SJWP plus 2 speed loaders. I practice daily drawing and presenting my pistol, I practice reloading with snap caps I do in the dark or with my eyes closed. I am at the range weekly doing drills, shooting one handed off hand, from behind a barrel, both left and right handed. I shot from the ground, on my back on my sides. I do slow fire, single action and double action shooting, I do rapid fire drills. My father always told me if you want to be good at something you need to put in the time. My back up is a 12 ga. with buck shot.
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Old November 15, 2012, 02:19 AM   #119
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if 8 isn't enough then you need more practice shooting.

edit:
here is what i should have wrote:
if you can't hit the BG with at least 1 of the 8 rounds without reloading, your best bet is to try doing IIRC figure 8 drills, it is a drill that you can do by moving in a figure 8 pattern between two pieces of "cover", i seen it done in a defensive training video i got from PDN.
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Old November 15, 2012, 08:50 AM   #120
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Posted by silvermane_1: if 8 isn't enough then you need more practice shooting.
Obviously you have made certain assumptions about the encounter.....about the number of attackers, about the suddenness with which the need for deadly force materializes, about the distance to and the speed of the attackers, about whether they have the advantage of cover or shadow or both during any part of the encounter, about their psychological and physical make-up, about the lighting conditions, about body armor, about whether it is necessary for you to shoot while running for cover, and about how many rounds you want to have remaining after the attack.

Or is it you haven't considered those things?
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Old November 15, 2012, 10:35 AM   #121
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Good points. Folks have the implicit assumption that ALL gun fights are the single mugger who you wave your gun at and flees. Or, you shoot one shot that is immediately effective.

That might be modal but if you are in the extremes of the incident distribution, as pointed out, OOOOPPPS!
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Old November 15, 2012, 10:51 AM   #122
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Yes, it truly is amazing how the slightest bit of movement can drop the success rates of hitting your target by more than half. You go from hitting all your targets to becoming a bit frustrated instantly. And that us just one change to the environment.
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:02 AM   #123
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Is 8 enough, 8 well placed bullets will do wonders. What any person that plans on defending themselves with a handgun needs to know how to shot their chosen gun. They need to know how to do a combat reload, they need to know how shot accurately. When a person decides to buy a gun for self defense or home protection they need to get good training. The way to improve your rate of survival is training and planning. I carry a S&W 686+ that 7 rounds of 38+P 125 grain of SJWP plus 2 speed loaders. I practice daily drawing and presenting my pistol, I practice reloading with snap caps I do in the dark or with my eyes closed. I am at the range weekly doing drills, shooting one handed off hand, from behind a barrel, both left and right handed. I shot from the ground, on my back on my sides. I do slow fire, single action and double action shooting, I do rapid fire drills. My father always told me if you want to be good at something you need to put in the time. My back up is a 12 ga. with buck shot.
All of these things are so true but, even with a well trained individual the accuracy drops dramatically when high levels of stress are added to the scenario not to mention if your getting shot at as well. Most of us can not train for being shot at. Your training routine is also not the norm even for LEO's. 90% of the gun carrying public need 90% more training! Myself included....
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:08 AM   #124
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Some other considerations:
  • Will anything prevent you from evading or escaping from the threat?
  • Will you be responsible for defending family members who cannot reasonably retreat?
  • Will you be the sole defender, or will someone else with you also be armed?
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Old November 15, 2012, 11:39 AM   #125
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Unless it is the gunfight at the OK corral, 8 should be fine.
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