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Old November 7, 2012, 09:01 PM   #76
barnbwt
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Nobody here goes looking for trouble, but you can, for instance, be detoured into a bad neighborhood and your car break down. It happens.
Or if your tour bus gets lost 5+ times in the ghetto on a trip to 'Nawlins, like what happened to me in High School...there is some weird and scary stuff back in those areas

I subscribe to the theory of preparing for what is likely and possible from me (since I can't predict what might happen to me). We carry weapons (well, I do) as a pragmatic measure against potential attack; it follows we should approach the problem from that perspective as well, and not simply choose based on what is instinctivly comforting for us (denying the potential of attack at all is far more comfortable, after all)

If confronted by more than 3 (probably 2 in reality) goons at a close defensive distance (since I see no reason I would ever draw a gun on someone from across the street, as opposed to running), I'd be able to get 2, maybe 3 shots off before being jumped (if not shot) provided; the gun was already in my hand, and pointed at them, and all the goons were in front of me). Even that scenario is hopelessly optimistic if any of those conditions aren't met (I'd most likely be shot/bludgeoned while drawing) and if the baddies don't run when they detect "gun".

In reality, I'm simply weighing myself down if I even load my TRR8 to its full 8 shot capacity (but a half-filled revolver is unbalanced ).

Personally, I don't carry to give myself a 1:1,000,000 chance in a 1:1,000,000,000+ scenario; but a 1:2 chance at survival in a 1:10,000 scenario.

"Your boys may get me in a rush, but not before I turn your head into a canoe."
-Wyatt Earp in Tombstone (admittedly not an authority on CCW, but matches my sensibilities on the matter)

TCB

(I also carry two moonclips of 8 when in the backwoods (more a bulk/balance issue, though) so I never understand why "revolver" tends to be equated with "no reloading allowed." Clips/speedloaders are every bit as fast as magazines, and strips fast enough for a reload after-action)
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Old November 7, 2012, 09:39 PM   #77
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A handgun is not the optimum HD gun, if you can get barricaded. I would prefer a rifle (AR) or a shotgun (pump or Semi 12 Gauge) If I were concerned about mobs of 5.

I keep an 870 by my bedside.

There is not much I can say bad about a good revolver. Learn to run it so that it is second nature. Carry reloads and learn to reload. You can look at all of the stats you want about shots fired, hits, misses, how many it takes at what distance and it tells you nothing. The fact that you are in a gunfight is in itself a mathematically anomaly.

I love my Smith 357's but I carry an auto these days, in case I do get in a fight with a gun I want every advantage I can get. Can you do it with 5? With 8? I don't know my luck is so good I carry spare parts and a tool box in my truck.
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Old November 8, 2012, 08:06 AM   #78
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You can look at all of the stats you want about shots fired, hits, misses, how many it takes at what distance and it tells you nothing. The fact that you are in a gunfight is in itself a mathematically anomaly.
Excellent point!
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Old November 8, 2012, 10:29 AM   #79
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(but a half-filled revolver is unbalanced )
Hey barn, Just load every other chamber.
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Old November 8, 2012, 10:34 AM   #80
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Posted by barnbwt: If confronted by more than 3 (probably 2 in reality) goons at a close defensive distance (since I see no reason I would ever draw a gun on someone from across the street, as opposed to running), I'd be able to get 2, maybe 3 shots off before being jumped (if not shot) provided; the gun was already in my hand, and pointed at them, and all the goons were in front of me).
You need to learn to shoot a lot faster.
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Old November 8, 2012, 04:22 PM   #81
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Did anyone here ever stop to consider that the best gun for one person might not be the best gun for another? For example, someone who, should they have to use a gun in self-defense, is most likely to be faced with a group of small to average sized attackers at moderate range is probably better served with a different gun than the person who has to worry more about one or two very large attackers at very close range.

Capacity is certainly an attribute of various handguns that should be considered when choosing a self-defense weapon, but it is far from the only consideration and it isn't necessarily the most important consideration either. As to falling back onto borderline cliches about more capacity never being a bad thing, well it isn't until it is. You see, capacity isn't an independent variable which can be changed without affecting the other attributes of the gun. I'm sure we'd all like a gun that gave us the power of a .44 Magnum, the capacity of a full-size 9mm, and the ease of carry of a .25 Auto (not to mention the recoil of a BB gun) but unfortunately no such gun exists. You see, no one gun can be the best for everything so we must decide which attributes are most important and which ones are subject to compromise.

As to the OP's question, the only person who can determine if 8 rounds is enough is you through careful examination of your lifestyle, where you live, and what sorts of things one might reasonably expect to happen in your area. For me, 5 to 6 rounds with a speed strip, speed loader, or both is enough, but I'm not you and our needs aren't necessarily the same.
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Old November 8, 2012, 04:46 PM   #82
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Posted by Webleymkv: Did anyone here ever stop to consider that the best gun for one person might not be the best gun for another? For example, someone who, should they have to use a gun in self-defense, is most likely to be faced with a group of small to average sized attackers at moderate range is probably better served with a different gun than the person who has to worry more about one or two very large attackers at very close range.
Well, the likelihood of either happening is very low indeed, and the likelihood of one vs the other happening is neither predictable nor apt to be a function of who the defender is.

Quote:
You see, no one gun can be the best for everything so we must decide which attributes are most important and which ones are subject to compromise.
No argument there.

I once carried a Centennial Airweight--small and light, but with limited capacity, and with its tough DA pull, difficult for me to shoot accurately and rapidly.

For those reasons, I now generally carry a compact polymer-framed 9MM striker fired semi-auto--small and light, more capacity, and somewhat easier to shoot.

If I were to have to shoot at a greater range, it might not be ideal; for that I would prefer a heavier, larger .45 semiautomatic with less capacity but with a good SA trigger pull and good sights. I can hit a lot better with it.

Eight rounds, by the way.

But I do have to decide in advance, and yes, compromise.
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Old November 8, 2012, 04:58 PM   #83
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I admit I haven't read this entire thread. My first thought for the OP was, "move someplace safer". I know this is not always a viable option. A post of this type gets one envisioning an attack of the magnitude suggested, and the thoughts about staving off such an attack vary tremendously, at least in my case. I do tend to overthink things sometimes. I would want my first line of defense to be a tactical 12 gauge shotgun with a mag tube extension, or even one of the fancy hi-cap shotgun mags I've been seeing on shooting shows lately. My thought is, that if you are facing 5 assailants, there won't be a lot of aiming or even conscious thought about what you are doing going on. Also, at least for me, shotgun shooting is more intuitive somehow. I haven't used shotguns a lot, so I'm not what one could call a "shotgun guy", but I have no trouble hitting stuff with them. The .357 could be used to finish em off, if they still have the wherewithal to be reaching for a weapon.
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Old November 8, 2012, 05:06 PM   #84
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Posted by abber: My thought is, that if you are facing 5 assailants, there won't be a lot of aiming or even conscious thought about what you are doing going on. Also, at least for me, shotgun shooting is more intuitive somehow. I haven't used shotguns a lot, so I'm not what one could call a "shotgun guy", but I have no trouble hitting stuff with them.
Take a look at the pattern size of a shotgun at defensive shooting distance.

Yes, you will have to aim, or you will miss.
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Old November 8, 2012, 06:03 PM   #85
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Not enough to make me feel safe. I carry my Glock 19 which holds 16 rounds plus I have a full spare mag that carries an additional 15 rounds. 31 rounds total may seem like overkill but you know the old overused saying: "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it."
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Old November 8, 2012, 08:13 PM   #86
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Well, the likelihood of either happening is very low indeed, and the likelihood of one vs the other happening is neither predictable nor apt to be a function of who the defender is.
Well, lets see. Gang activity is pretty much unheard of in my corner of the world and I've never heard of anyone being attacked by more than two people in the entire 10+ years I've lived here. I also make a point of not frequenting "risky" places like bars where large numbers of judgement-impaired individuals are likely to be found. Because of these facts, I can safely say that I'm among those at lowest risk to face one of these nightmarish multiple-attacker scenarios that are always brought up.

I do, however, know from personal experience that most criminals are cowards and bullies and thus greatly prefer victims that are smaller, weaker, or at some other disadvantage to them rather than a fair fight. Because of this and the fact that I'm a fairly large individual myself (6'4" and 300+lbs) I would feel fairly confident in thinking that while I'm probably among the least likely to be attacked in the first place, should I have to actually use a gun in self-defense it would likely be against an attacker that is at least roughly equal in size to me, if not substantially larger.

I also know that part of my chosen low-risk lifestyle is to avoid confrontation and simply leave the situation if possible. Because of this, it is not an unreasonable conclusion that should I have to use a gun to defend myself, it will most likely be at very short range up to and including contact distance because, if the threat were at greater distance, I would attempt to retreat.

So, while it is true that neither situation can be predicted with absolute certainty, the odds of one or the other for a given person certainly aren't 50/50. Who the defender is, where he or she lives, and what type of lifestyle he or she chooses can certainly tell us which scenario is the more likely. It seems to me that when one considers multiple equally bad situations that might need to be faced, it is the most prudent to choose the tools that most adequately prepares you for the most likely of those bad situations.
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Old November 8, 2012, 08:26 PM   #87
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Did anyone here ever stop to consider that the best gun for one person might not be the best gun for another?
Webley, this is the internet.

You're right, though. I'm fully confident in my ability to acquit myself with a 6-shot revolver. A S&W K-frame balances in my hand and points more naturally than any other handgun. I've spent years in practice with it, and I shoot it well.

On the other hand, I've never gotten the hang of Glocks, and I've been around since they came out. So, in my case, the revolver it is.

There are folks who don't shoot revolvers well, or who simply don't take to them. The most important criteria for a self-defense firearm are reliability and how well I shoot it. Capacity is pretty far down on the list.
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Old November 8, 2012, 10:39 PM   #88
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The gun magazines have been throwing it out to their readers that if they carry they NEED to carry a reload, and they NEED to carry a flashlight, and they NEED to carry a knife AND a multitool.


Carry what makes you feel secure, not what someone tells you that you need to buy.
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Old November 8, 2012, 10:49 PM   #89
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And what's funny is that I often carry a reload, a multi-tool and/or a Swiss Army Knife.

Care to guess what gets the most use day to day?

The Swiss Army Knife, and not just for the corkscrew and bottle opener.

I carry a Glock 21 and feel that if 27 rounds of .45 ACP isn't enough to get me out of trouble, well, then my time has come and Lord, please don't let my Fraternity Brothers find my liqour stash.

I would be quite comfortable carrying a Smith & Wesson 642 or Ruger LCP instead.
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:35 AM   #90
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Webley, in response to your question
Quote:
Did anyone here ever stop to consider that the best gun for one person might not be the best gun for another?
I'll quote myself from post #53 of this thread:

Quote:
Shooting with formal stances and two-handed holds, I am faster with a 9mm. Through experimentation with one-handed shooting while moving or somewhat off-balance, I do better with the 1911. Since I believe in planning based more on worst case than on best case (hey, it's better when surprises are pleasant, isn't it?), I think it's important to be able to shoot with one hand, and whichever hand is still functional or not otherwise occupied.

I shoot K frames about equally well, but have more rounds and faster reloads with the 1911.

So, my points?

1) Don't assume that people who like a capacity advantage are necessarily poor shots.

2) Don't assume that people who like a capacity advantage believe in spray and pray.

3) Don't assume that people who like capacity, consider capacity alone to be a deciding factor.

4) Choosing the right handgun and carry package should involve more than just comparing relative capacity; but, capacity is still a factor that should be considered.
So, yes, the concept has been broached.
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Old November 9, 2012, 07:51 AM   #91
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Post 86

All true.

But I do not think that any non-sworn officer would be over gunned with anything that most people can reasonably conceal it he prepares for an attack by two, adds a safety margin, and provides for a malfunction.

The officer will carry a big pistol on his belt and a number of hi-cap magazines, for reasons that do not apply to others.
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Old November 9, 2012, 06:15 PM   #92
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The rest of the bad guys will take off running?

You mean they may take off running; you might even mean they will most likely take off running.

You can't seriously say they will do anything. Not all of them have read your script.

Meanwhile, note that while LE used to carry 6 shot revolvers, you'd be hard pressed to find any agency that currently issues same.
And you would find many cases of officers being killed, or being unable to stop the bad guy, because they only had six rounds. I lost a couple of friends who emptied their guns before they were killed.

Like I said, I carried a revolver the majority of my time as a cop, and I often carry one now. But would I go back to being a cop with one? Not in a million years. And anyone that would doesn't understand the job, or they watch too much TV.

As a cop, if you start taking rifle fire from 100 yards away, while you're out of the car doing an accident investigation, (a real event), you can't call a time out. Having 15+ rounds on tap, with a fast reload available, might make the difference in hitting the target, or interfering with his fire. I could suggest a hundred other similar scenarios.

As a CCW, your chances are less of being in one of these outliers. Only you can decide how prepared you want to be for one anyway.
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Old November 9, 2012, 09:38 PM   #93
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"Is 8 shots enough?", question has been answered by fellow shooters a long time ago by using one simple drill.

Start with two IPSC type & size carboard targets at 10 yards that are suspended in the air, from a target frame, using string tied to one or more balloons hidden from the shooters view. Just as the BG vitals are not exposed, the balloon(s) can't be seen either. Hit enough balloons and the target falls. Mix in alittle natural wind movement, stress from other shooters watching you sweat...it's only 10 yards under ideal conditions, you have plenty of time to get ready...

Sometimes there is 3 or 4 or 5 ballons,; sometimes just one balloon per target is used, sometimes 1 bullets goes thru more than 1 balloon.

It is non uncommon for more than 1 shooter to reload a high capacity piece to complete the drill. Go ahead and laught. Tell yourself that could never be you.Only 10 yards? Everyone is thinking the same thing; 'Oh that's easy'. Sure. Keep thinking you are smarter & better than the guy whom had to fire 20 plus shots.

If you know someone whom has gone thru this they probably won't think it's so funny. But your eight shots will be enough. Emm--Hmmm.

"Is 8 shots enough?",

It better be because you aren't getting any of my ammo.

For all you GGs out there I say I hope so.
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Old November 9, 2012, 09:47 PM   #94
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In groups of 5? You need a Tommy gun, better yet, move.
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Old November 9, 2012, 10:13 PM   #95
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Keep thinking you are smarter & better than the guy whom had to fire 20 plus shots.
That game sounds like a lot of fun, actually (grim though you made it sound )! How long did it take the 20+ shooter (or any of them, I guess) to burn through those first eight rounds. Time, in my mind, is the limiting factor in the "mobbed by street toughs" scenario that's being presented. IF they don't scatter on the first eight shots (or are struck by them) they surely won't be standing still or moving sideways. By then, you'll be making contact and your gun's usefulness is diminished or now even a threat.

I'd like to see a shooting game where targets on carriers rush at the shooter from 3-10 yards to 2 yards (or past) with no warning, pistol holstered, possibly while screaming profanities . It'd be like shooting skeet in reverse, and I wonder how many targets/minute a shooter could possibly do, and from how many directions. Now mix in a large number of "friendly" targets that go before the nasties. Just the thought of that setup squelches my ambitions at being a duelist. Maybe others really are that good

Quote:
In groups of 5? You need a Tommy gun, better yet, move.
Best advice yet. Ain't no laws (yet) that say you have to live in a war zone.

TCB
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Old November 9, 2012, 11:34 PM   #96
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Time, in my mind, is the limiting factor in the "mobbed by street toughs" scenario
Time is neutral, the BGs are not. So it is up to you to place as many rounds as need to stop the threat.

Quote:
I wonder how many targets/minute a shooter could possibly do, and from how many directions.
Who knows? I don't. So why limit your option to just one cylinder load? Happy Holidays from your friend, Walter Mitty.
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Old November 10, 2012, 04:01 AM   #97
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Is 8 Rounds Enough?
Mr Garand thought it was.

But of course the canvas slings makes a dandy holder for a few extra clips if you just leave it swinging...

Sorry, I know this is the handgun forum, but I can't help but think of the M1 when you mention 8 shots.
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Old November 12, 2012, 03:17 AM   #98
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No apologies needed to 'Grandize' the BGs.
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Old November 12, 2012, 07:47 AM   #99
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I think 8 is enough.
Unless you shoot like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5osOt...e_gdata_player
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Old November 13, 2012, 07:49 PM   #100
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PiperSuperCubPilot

Is 8 Rounds Enough?
I'm considering a S&W 627 8 shot .357 Magnum for an "all around" handgun. It's big but could be concealed if needed. It's big enough for home defense too.

But I'm concerned that 8 rounds isn't enough when there are 15 shot .45 semi autos and such around.
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You just can't know what the future holds.
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