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Old November 6, 2012, 10:22 PM   #51
Elmer
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Quote:
Why do people keep assuming that having capacity automatically implies using capacity?

If I have 8+1 (I usually carry a 1911) plus two 8rd spares, but only need to fire one shot, I can do that.

If I have 5 (my 442) but need to fire 10, I am out of luck.
That about sums it up.

I've been in a shooting where all I had was a J frame with no reload. It was enough.

Does that mean 5 is enough?
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:27 AM   #52
warnerwh
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What makes more difference than number of rounds is skill, at least imo. With 8 rounds many people are more than comfortable. To me 6 rounds is plenty and is all I've used for the last couple of decades for HD. I have practiced enough including instant point shooting that a revolver is fine. It wasn't til the internet that I found out 6 rounds may not be enough lol. Worry about hitting the attacker(s) under stress. It takes thousands of rounds and dry firing practice to be any good with a handgun. Really
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:35 AM   #53
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I have thousands of rounds of practice behind me (actually, 1000 rounds is a fairly typical, or even slightly slow, month), was rated Expert in Navy and Army qualification courses, shoot IDPA twice a month, and do a lot of shooting both at the LGS range and in my back pasture.

I don't consider my skills to be particularly poor.

That said, I still prefer more over less, within reason. The 1911 is a good middle point for me, in that I shoot the platform very well, including one-handed and weak-handed; it fires an effective round; and it is faster to reload than are my revolvers.

It lacks the capacity of some of my 9mm pistols, but what it lacks in capacity it makes up for in my ability to put accurate fire on target, quickly.

Shooting with formal stances and two-handed holds, I am faster with a 9mm. Through experimentation with one-handed shooting while moving or somewhat off-balance, I do better with the 1911. Since I believe in planning based more on worst case than on best case (hey, it's better when surprises are pleasant, isn't it?), I think it's important to be able to shoot with one hand, and whichever hand is still functional or not otherwise occupied.

I shoot K frames about equally well, but have more rounds and faster reloads with the 1911.

So, my points?

1) Don't assume that people who like a capacity advantage are necessarily poor shots.

2) Don't assume that people who like a capacity advantage believe in spray and pray.

3) Don't assume that people who like capacity, consider capacity alone to be a deciding factor.

4) Choosing the right handgun and carry package should involve more than just comparing relative capacity; but, capacity is still a factor that should be considered.
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:44 AM   #54
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Again, that about sums it up.....
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:53 AM   #55
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To throw in a vehicular comparison, I have an Avalanche. It is a 4WD. Previously, I have owned a Silverado Z71, and an Explorer Sport. They were also 4WD.

A lot of people buy SUVs and trucks in RWD mode. They don't need the 4WD, so they don't wish to pay for purchase, maintenance, or fuel costs.

Some people use 4WD on a regular basis. For them, it is a must have.

In my case, I use 4WD reasonably often, for instance when dealing with snow, ice, loose dirt or sand, or standing water. Most of the time, though, I don't use 4WD. When you need it, it is very, very nice to have it. For me, having the capability when I do need it is enough of an advantage to outweigh the associated increased costs.

Obviously, not every truck buyer would agree with me. (My uncle, for instance, has a 2WD extended bed F150... but he only bought it because he is into RC airplanes, and his planes have 7' wingspans... he can take them to the airfield in his F150 without disassembling them.)

OP, only you can decide what works best for you.

I'm one of those people who tends toward the "better to have and not need, than need and not have" end of the spectrum, so take any advice from me with that grain of salt.

(My Avalanche has in its various tool compartments such things as a first aid kit, an entrenching tool, tire chains, jumper cables, a portable jump battery / air compressor / light station, an emergency blanket, a fire extinguisher, a couple spare quarts of oil and a funnel... you get the idea.)
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Old November 7, 2012, 01:34 AM   #56
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For more than 100 years, up through the 1970s, 6 shot revolvers have gotten the job done for LE, security and private citizens. Small revolvers, with only 5 shots, are carried today by many CCW permit holders across the country, including myself. The overwhelming majority of criminals are cowards who seek victims, they believe will not fight back. That's one reason the elderly are so often victimized. But, if that elderly potential victim pulls out even a two shot derringer and fires at his closest attacker, the rest of the bad guys will take off running and wet themselves along the way. 8 shots of .357 magnum is a formidable self-defense choice. Those wheel guns tend to be a little large for concealed carry, but if you are comfortable with it and shoot it well, it is more than adequate for self-defense. Like many who carry concealed, I bring along an extra speed loader. But it is highly unlikely that it would ever be needed.
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Old November 7, 2012, 01:46 AM   #57
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The rest of the bad guys will take off running?

You mean they may take off running; you might even mean they will most likely take off running.

You can't seriously say they will do anything. Not all of them have read your script.

Meanwhile, note that while LE used to carry 6 shot revolvers, you'd be hard pressed to find any agency that currently issues same.
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Old November 7, 2012, 04:45 AM   #58
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I like revolvers and frequently carry a 5 or 6 shot revolver with no reload and consider myself adequately armed. However my projected / anticipated defensive situations do not involve 5 attackers 3 of whom are armed.

I am not saying that an attack such as this can not, or will not happen, I am simply saying that it is not on my list of likely situations so it's not something I am preparing for or worrying about. The OP obviously is and has his reasons which is fine, I feel bad for anyone who has reasonable fear of such a situation.

Normally I would say the 627 is a good gun if you can conceal / carry it but this is based on my perspective for normal CCW which does not typically include 5 on 1. However, IF a 5 perp / 3 are armed situation is on your list of things you feel you need to be worried about then I would respectfully suggest that for the size weigh factor there are far better choices than the 627 for carry.

The situation that you pose is a tactical nightmare to win so you are going to need every advantage you can get. A semiauto of some sort can give you more rounds and faster reloads, so again in the situation you suggest there are better choices. This is the cold hard truth of the matter and the hope that plugging one or two is just that hope --- not a certainty, they could just as likely want to avenge their fallen friends, the situation you pose is really tough so lets not take easy outs with false hope and assumptions.

I think an similar situation would be discussing pump vs. lever vs. semi-auto rifles for defense. There is nothing wrong with a good pump or lever gun for defensive use, and arguably if they are sitting in a corner collecting dust they might have more reliability in time of need than a semi. However if the proposed situation is 5 attackers 3 of whom are armed, you can not deny that the semiauto is going to give you an advantage.

In a home defense situation obviously the discussion can and SHOULD transition to long arms, either shotgun or rifle in this 5 to 1 situation.

Good luck with your considerations, I truly feel for you living under these conditions.
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Old November 7, 2012, 08:59 AM   #59
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Quote:
Posted by Rifleman1952: Small revolvers, with only 5 shots, are carried today by many CCW permit holders across the country, including myself.
That does not mean that the choice is wise.

Quote:
The overwhelming majority of criminals are cowards who seek victims, they believe will not fight back. That's one reason the elderly are so often victimized.
That may be true, but it is irrelevant.

Quote:
But, if that elderly potential victim pulls out even a two shot derringer and fires at his closest attacker, the rest of the bad guys will take off running and wet themselves along the way.
Maybe. Maybe not. I wouldn't bet on it.
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Old November 7, 2012, 09:08 AM   #60
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MLeake: The fact that most LE officers today carry semi-autos does not mean that a wheel gun would be ineffective for civilian self-defense. Wheelguns did the job for a very long time and continue to be used effectively today and likely into the future.

As for the probability of a criminal's response to deadly force; yes there is always the possibility that a drug crazed or mentally disturbed individual will continue his attack after being hit. But the vast majority of criminals are cowards, who seek easy prey. I am retired now, but have many years of experience working with criminals, trust me on this one.

The below video has been posted on thefiringline previously but is appropriate for this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey11D4wzxHE

The response, to two rounds fired by a 65 year old woman, by these five would be robbers, is typical of the vast majority of bad guys I have dealt with over the years. Most criminals are only brave when they believe they hold the upper hand.
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:20 AM   #61
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Well posted MLEAKE, especially the first two.

Having more rounds does mean mean you subscribe to spray and pray nor does it mean you are any less skilled, just more prepared.

There is not a scenario out there where having more rounds would be a disadvantage. However there are scenarios, admittedly unlikely but still possible, where having fewer rounds could be a huge disadvantage. I'd hate to get caught in one of those scenarios.
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:34 AM   #62
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Eight is one more than I carry. If 50 rounds fit into the space of 8, I would carry that many. Of course I hope never to need a single round.
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:48 AM   #63
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It depends on the caliber.

One hit of .45 ACP will ALWAYS be enough. It will cast men to the Earth.

One hit of .357 magnum... break out the steam cleaner as a body bag will not be needed. Instant vaporization.

But if its a 9mm? GOOD LUCK. They sell 33 round Glock 9mm magazines for a reason.

Honestly, if you a comfortable with even a 5 shot J-frame, have learned to load it in your sleep and quickly, and have confidence, it will do nicely in all but the most extraordinary situations imaginable. But that being said, if you can get good with a gun that has more capacity that is only a benefit, but it simply isn't the most important thing to me in a defensive handgun. I really like my Glock 19, but consider the capacity secondary to other reasons for trusting it so.

Shot placement, reliability, accuracy to some point, and above all the shooter's skill and confidence are much more important! JMHO.
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Old November 7, 2012, 11:08 AM   #64
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Quote:
Posted by Rifleman1952: As for the probability of a criminal's response to deadly force; yes there is always the possibility that a drug crazed or mentally disturbed individual will continue his attack after being hit. But the vast majority of criminals are cowards, who seek easy prey. I am retired now, but have many years of experience working with criminals, trust me on this one.
The question is how soon after being hit he will discontinue his attack. Where you hit him, how many times, at what distance, how fast he is moving, his physical makeup, his psychological condition, and other things will all figure in.

Cowards? Maybe, but if you are shooting, he has already decided to attack you.

What about his accomplice? Do you want to bet your life on his cowardice? If he is already in slashing range when you shoot the other one, would increasing the distance be his best bet? Suppose he thinks your shots were those of his partner; that has happened. And there is the possibility that your car represents his only means of escape.

Quote:
The response, to two rounds fired by a 65 year old woman, by these five would be robbers, is typical of the vast majority of bad guys I have dealt with over the years.
"Typical" is not something to prepare for.

Quote:
Most criminals are only brave when they believe they hold the upper hand.
That's irrelevant.
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Old November 7, 2012, 11:15 AM   #65
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Posted by Model12Win: Honestly, if you a comfortable with even a 5 shot J-frame, have learned to load it in your sleep and quickly, and have confidence, it will do nicely in all but the most extraordinary situations imaginable.
Do you consider a fast attack by two violent criminal actors "most extraordinary?" that seem to be the norm around here.

Consider this, carefully.
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Old November 7, 2012, 11:32 AM   #66
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What if threads are always amusing to read.

If you add up all the odds, you're a winner if you can make a bang sound. Criminals think they are invincible when they employ a gun, when you make a gun sound, they typically run. Then you practice and they don't, the odds of a fatal shot to you is under 5% if I am remembering a public TV program from many years ago.

Cary a gun with reasonable capacity and practice. I practice draw and fire and work to keep a double tap to 2.5 seconds or less. And drill into your head to take the extra half second to make the shot count, nothing is more important than hitting your target. Also I'd say carry a pistol rather than a revolver, if a criminal is thinking (which they obviously aren't) and they see a revolver, they know you have a limited capacity and a long time reloading verses a pistol where they don't know if you have 15 shots or not because there are so many variations.
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Old November 7, 2012, 11:46 AM   #67
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Posted by TylerDog: Criminals think they are invincible when they employ a gun, when you make a gun sound, they typically run.
Basis for that assertion?

Quote:
Then you practice and they don't, ...
A study some time ago showed that many of them are very skilled indeed. I'm not going to look for it right now.

Quote:
...the odds of a fatal shot to you is under 5% if I am remembering a public TV program from many years ago.
Five percent? That's terrible.
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:06 PM   #68
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Basis for that assertion?
Like your understanding of "they practice" I heard it from reliable source. Bottom line, it is what it will be and there's no crystal ball.
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:07 PM   #69
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Oldmarksman: if there was a way for me to carry a high capacity full auto AR-15 in my hip pocket, I would. But that just is not feasible for most civilians. Most CCW permit holders are going to carry a small revolver or semi-auto pistol, with some of them carrying an extra mag of speed loader. Is that going to prepare you for every possible scenario imaginable? Of course not. We carry, train and practice in preparation for the most likely cases. In my area, that would be a mugging by one or two perps. In other words what is practical and appropriate for the average person. Perhaps you think those five fellows trying to rob the jewelry store were some brave young men. Believe me, they are par for the course.

Last edited by Rifleman1952; November 7, 2012 at 12:21 PM.
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Old November 7, 2012, 12:22 PM   #70
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Posted by Rifleman1952: Most CCW permit holders are going to carry a small revolver or semi-auto pistol, with some of them carrying an extra mag of speed loader.
I carried a J Frame, but upon careful reflection, went to pistols that hold eight to twelve rounds. I know I probably should carry an extra magazine, but currently I do not.

Quote:
We carry, train and practice in preparation for the most likely cases. In my area, that would be a mugging by one or two perps. In other words what is practical and appropriate for the average person.
I think one should prepare for two and add a safety margin.
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Old November 7, 2012, 01:46 PM   #71
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It is plenty. Except, of course, when it's not.
I just love that quote!
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Old November 7, 2012, 02:50 PM   #72
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If I'm wandering around in territory where I need more than 8 rounds I shouldn't even bother carrying a handgun. If you need more than 8 rounds you should have packed a sub gun.
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Old November 7, 2012, 02:56 PM   #73
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If I'm wandering around in territory where I need more than 8 rounds I shouldn't even bother carrying a handgun. If you need more than 8 rounds you should have packed a sub gun.
That's kind of how I feel but "What if" threads go in funny directions.
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Old November 7, 2012, 06:00 PM   #74
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Why settle for less?

I would recommend an MG42 machine gun with a lightweight bolt at about 1500 rounds a minute. Why settle for less if you live in a rough neighborhood?
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Old November 7, 2012, 06:17 PM   #75
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Is 8 enough?

Nobody here goes looking for trouble, but you can, for instance, be detoured into a bad neighborhood and your car break down. It happens.

8 should be enough for 1 or 2 assailants.

Three, four, five or more assailants is big trouble and calls for superior fighting skills and a handgun that can deliver overwhelming force. For me, its a snubby, a S&W 44 Mag. Only 6 shots but if the bad guys haven't quit by the time its empty, there is usually 1 or 2 New York reloads on hand.

"Of course there is a situation where a Glock 17 with several 33 round magazines wouldn't be enough." [fallingrock71]

couple = 2 mags
few = 3 mags
several = 4 or more mags

That means carrying a Glock 17 with 34 rounds on board plus 4 - 33 rd mags, for a total of 166 rounds on hand.

Can't imagine a threat that would require more than 166 rounds to stop.

Is 8 good enough? Most of the time yes. But 20 is best.
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