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Old November 6, 2012, 02:49 PM   #26
Bart B.
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langenc claims:
Quote:
Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.
Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

With the single exception of someone's eye being off center in a scope's optical axis and that scope not focused at the target range, all the light from the target through the sights (scope and iron) is the same for everyone.

It's physically impossible for different eyes to see the relationship of the sights to the target for a given alignment with each other.

If you're referring to the situation when two people use different sight settings for the same rifle and ammo at a target, that's caused by each person holding the rifle differently. The rifle's movement during recoil while the bullet goes down the barrel will be different.
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Old November 6, 2012, 03:09 PM   #27
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I will second the idea of "calling the shot".
What that amounts to is getting a mental picture of exactly what the sights looked like on the target when the gun recoiled.

From that,you predict where your hit will be on the target.It is an excersize in focus and concentration.

One important benefit,it insures your eyes are open as the trigger breaks.

Very often,a bit of recoil anticipation,or noise anticipation occrs with that last part of tripping the trigger.Calling the shot is a way to cure it.You might try letting a friend load your rifle,and one time leaving it empty by surprise.That can show you if you are flinching a bit.

If you are using iron sights,realize you must focus on the sights,and concentrate on keeping the sight picture as perfect as possible.
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Old November 6, 2012, 03:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
aarondhgraham wrote:

I would pay someone to sight in my rifles,,,
But they would have to prove themselves with a series of tight groups.

So here's the story,,,
I'm a mediocre rifle shot at best,,,

.....

Aarond

Aarond,

Save your money - Doesn't make sense to have someone sight in a rifle for you if you can't shoot it accurately.
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Old November 6, 2012, 03:23 PM   #29
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Good advice from Kraig, it's more difficult (and less reassuring) with open groups obviously but still valid.
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Old November 6, 2012, 05:20 PM   #30
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Thanks Kraigwy and Spacecoast,,,

Quote:
Count the bullets in each quarter. Ajust your sights from the high number of shots to the low number of shots.
Okay, that's practical advice a person can use.

Quote:
Save your money - Doesn't make sense to have someone sight in a rifle for you if you can't shoot it accurately.
Wouldn't you like to know that the sights on your rifle were zeroed?

Quote:
If you cant sight it in Im not sure you should be shooting it....
That's kind of harsh,,,
Are you saying I should quit shooting?

Quote:
Are you using iron sights or a scope?
Hello alex0535,,,
Yes, it's a valid question,,,
I did forget to state that in my OP.

I'm using iron sights on this rifle,,,
I have no problem zeroing a scoped rifle,,,
I have a H&R Handi-Rifle in .22 with a Bushnell Banner scope,,,
I got it zeroed very nicely at 50 yards and hit clay pigeons at 100 yards.

It's the 61 year old eyes that are having trouble with iron sights,,,
And I need to stay with irons for this endeavor as rimfire silhouette excludes optics.

I just remember way back in time when my brother-in-law bought a new .22 rifle for my sister,,,
She was so frustrated because after two boxes of ammo she still hadn't hit one Coke can at about 35 yards.

Later on my Dad (who was a phenomenal shot with a .22) shot at a paper target with that gun,,,
It turned out that at that distance the rifle was hitting about 10" to one side,,,
A few taps with a hammer drifted the sight into proper zero.

It's like calibrating any piece of equipment before using it,,,
I would feel my practice time is better spent with a calibrated rifle.

I will try what Kraigwy suggested this weekend,,,
And then work towards tightening my groups with practice.

Thanks gentlemen.

Aarond

.
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Old November 6, 2012, 05:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Bart B.

Quote:
langenc claims:
Quote:
Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.
Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.
The sight picture doesn't change but the person shooting the gun does.

Two people shooting the same gun can get two sets of consistent results because they may:
- hold the gun differently
- perceive recoil differently
- and yes, even see the target differently through a scope because of the way they are holding/resting it.

I have experienced this with handguns and long-guns between family members. One person's zero with a scope may not be another's. There's usually a one or two click adjustment. This is doubly true with handguns/iron sights and those who are cross-eye dominant.

Maybe this is a better way of saying it...
It's not the sights but the way the firearm is held that requires a different zero with the same firearm.
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Old November 6, 2012, 06:38 PM   #32
Bart B.
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Onward Allusion's comment:
Quote:
Two people shooting the same gun can get two sets of consistent results because they may:
- hold the gun differently
- perceive recoil differently
I've shot on and coached long range rifle teams with both aperture front and rear, service rifle aperture at the rear and post up front and scoped rifles. When "hot gunning" a single rifle among all of us, we all had different zeros on its sights. Each man on the gun set the sights for his own zero when he went on the firing line. Sometimes there was as much as 1.5 MOA spread in windage and/or elevation across all four of us on the team with the same rifle and ammo.

Regarding Onward's last line:
Quote:
- and yes, even see the target differently through a scope because of the way they are holding/resting it.
Several times, I've proved this is also a myth. Prove it to yourself, if you dare.

Putting a collimator in the muzzle for scope sights (whose eyepiece is focused on and parallax free on the reticule and objecive lens is focused on the target so it's parallax free on the reticule) or a false bullseye in front of the front sight for irons or aperture sights, then having folks adjust the W and E knobs to align the reticule or sights on the target ended up with everyone being within 1/4 MOA of each other. When they repeated the setup, they would be within 1/4 MOA of their last one. Had to prove this many times to folks who, like so many, think each of us humans look through sights (metallic or glass) different ways. People don't realize that the light from the target passing by or through the sights to the human eye doesn't change from person to person. The light doesn't know where it's going nor where it'll stop.

Last edited by Bart B.; November 6, 2012 at 06:47 PM.
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Old November 6, 2012, 07:05 PM   #33
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People using iron sights could use them differently, 6 oclock hold versus center hold for example, but any two people who correctly use the same hold will hit the same spot.

Scopes are even simpler. If you're looking through it without parallax and you have your eye correctly centered in the optic, you can't help but hit the same spot. Optics only work one way.
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Old November 6, 2012, 07:25 PM   #34
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Arrond: the best thing for you to do is buy as much ammo as you can and shoot a lot. If you start flinching, stop for couple days, then shoot some more. That's the best way to learn to shoot. A good coach can help too. But you are getting no where if someone else sights in your rifle, you will still have large groups.

Sighting in does not affect group size, it only affects where the group appears on the target. Group size is affected by the skill of the shooter. So you need to develop your skill. All else doesn't matter.
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Old November 6, 2012, 08:27 PM   #35
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Heh, didn't realize that I stirred such a storm.

Forgetting about what I've experienced with my boys and a couple of little old 10/22's & Marlin 25's at 25 & 50 yards. . .

Here's something to ponder. . .<gotta love the Interweb>

http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/ZeroDiffer.htm

Quote:
Question about scopes being the same for different people. Scopes are all set at some range for parallex on less they are adjustable. if you are shoting at the range for which they are set then the zero should be the same for anyone, but once you move to distances other than where the parallex is set for people will have different zeros because of different ways of holding the weapon" where thier eye is relative to the scope". People who have the same shooting hold and have little difference in thier distance from their eye to their cheek have little difference in where thier eye comes to rest relative to the scope and therefore have closer zeros.

Jeff Cooper <Lo Flyin@aol.com>
MEMphis, TN USA - Friday, November 27, 1998 at 15:18:46 (EST)
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Old November 6, 2012, 09:01 PM   #36
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That was cold, Scorch. Aaron, 80% of marksmanship is trigger control & followthrough. You have to learn to call your shots, as was noted. Even a crappy trigger can deliver good groups if you're paying enough attention to call your shots. Trigger pull and calling your shots go together. Pay attention to your trigger pull but no so much that you quit seeing the sight picture. Let your eye control your trigger finger. As the sights come into alignment, trigger pressure is increased. As the sights drift out of alignment, trigger pressure stops but is not released. Sights come back into alignment, trigger pressure is increased...until the shot breaks, and it's at that moment that you have to be very aware of sight alignment and where your sights are...followthrough. That's how you call your shots.

If you was high left when the shot broke, call it. High left. You probably will lose the sight under recoil but you was paying attention to where it was when it broke. When I was just learning this, I thought I was learning trigger control (I was) but I was really learning to call my shots.

Of course if you seen it it high left and the strike was high right (and nothing else happened like flinch, jerking, you blink, etc.) then it is not zeroed and needs adjustment. You'll learn to zero your rifle while you're learning to call your shots.
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Old November 7, 2012, 01:09 AM   #37
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My eldest son struggled with flinching for a long time. Even a 22 would make him jump... What did I do? I got him really good hearing protection. It worked well. Noise is worse for flinching than recoil is (in my opinion)
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Old November 7, 2012, 09:15 AM   #38
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One other thing that most (yes, most; about 80% from what I've observed) folks do that causes inaccurate shooting is how they use their trigger finger. Keeping ones aiming eye open when the arm fires is also important 'cause if you don't do this, you'll never be able to call your shot.

First off, the jerk, quick-pull or yank ones finger drives the trigger back hard against its stop. That's going to put enough force on the firearm to move it's alignment with the intended target away to someplace else. It's all a subconcious mental process that starts when the sights are well aligned and aimed at the desired point of bullet impact and the instant things look perfect, "NOW" is the mental command to the trigger finger to make it shoot the arm immediately.

Secondly, it doesn't matter whether the trigger was pulled as a result of that subconcious NOW thought that jerked the trigger back, or, a perfect gentle squeeze that makes the arm fire somewhat unexpectedly. As soon as the shooter's subconcious senses feels the trigger break, they flick their trigger finger off of it. I think this is based on ones safety issues and they subconciously don't want their finger on the trigger any more than what's needed. Problem is, that "FINGER FLICKING" is so fast, it puts enough counter force on the arm that it moves off the desired place to put the bullet where it's intended to go. "Follow through" is the term that referrs to the shooter keeping their trigger finger all the way back until they stop moving from recoil. Doing this ensures there'll be no disturbing the arm's position while the firing pin (or hammer) falls, fires the cartridge and the bullet goes through the barrel. After the bullet's left the barrel, one can move whatever body parts they want to 'cause it'll not effect that "perfect shot" in any way.

Had a guy on a military rifle team who was nororious about jerking and finger flicking. But he didn't believe me saying he had this problem. He could not shoot his Garand very accurately in spite of its capability to hold 2/3 MOA at 600 yards with a good lot of M118 match ammo. Best he could do was keep most of his shots inside the 36 inch eight ring on the 600 yard target. So I decided to prove to him that while he could hold and aim his M1 very, very well, he just didn't have good trigger control.

Had him lay down slung up in prone on the 600 yard line, he would single load the Garand, then get into position but his trigger finger was not on the trigger. I layed down beside him then put my right hand thumb behind the trigger guard and my trigger finger on the trigger. After he breathed deep a few times and held his breath, the rifle was then held very still on target. I'd just gently squeeze the trigger firing the shot about 10 seconds after he held his breath. Two shots got a good zero on target. Then he (we?) shot 10 shots for the training session. All ten shots were in the 12 inch ten ring; 4 in the 6 inch X ring. He could not believe he shot that well. And he finally realized he was a finger-jerker and finger-flicker. After some ball and dummy practice, he finally became the best marksman on the 4-man team I was training.

Last edited by Bart B.; November 7, 2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old November 7, 2012, 10:55 PM   #39
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The comment about no two people having the same zero is bunk. Take this for what it's worth. My older brother was about as different from me as could be. He was left handed, about 6'1", 250-270#. I'm right handed, 5'9", 150-165#. I sighted his rifles in all the time and he then fired a couple of shots to confirm-into the same group.
I used to do sight-ins for pay when I was younger. $5-10 plus ammo was normal. I've shot a LOT of different rifles and never had anyone find a discernable difference in zero. A hard kicking rifle may show some vertical dispersion if a second shooter doesn't resist the recoil the same as the first. That's why a rifle zeroed with a lead sled won't give the same POI when fired from the shoulder.
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Old November 8, 2012, 12:09 AM   #40
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You said you had a .357 rifle. Practice dry firing that at home. Put it over the back of a couch, on a cushion on the table, etc. Practice the fundamentals. When you get good at the trigger pull, put a coin on the barrel and pull the trigger. If the coin stays put the trigger pull is good. Iron sights can be hard to use at times. If you can, get good with a scope, or a red dot. Either will work ar 50 yards with a .22. When you get consistent good results with a scoped rifle, practice with irons. You would want to do it in that order to take all of the variables out, so you know what you're doing wrong. Good luck.
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Old November 8, 2012, 12:20 AM   #41
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With irons, how you hold the rifle or how you look through the sights can certainly affect zero. This is why, in military courses of fire, we zeroed our own.

A consistent hold with your own rifle will help. The technique I was taught with the M16 / AR15 is to touch the tip of my nose against the charging handle when I achieve cheek weld. My sights are zeroed for me, using that technique. Would they be dead on for somebody with a shorter or longer nose, or differently spaced eyes? Perhaps not.
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Old November 8, 2012, 12:21 AM   #42
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Quote:
langenc claims:
Quote:
Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.

Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

With the single exception of someone's eye being off center in a scope's optical axis and that scope not focused at the target range, all the light from the target through the sights (scope and iron) is the same for everyone.

It's physically impossible for different eyes to see the relationship of the sights to the target for a given alignment with each other.
If its a myth, then why have I seen, and experienced people having different points of impact using the same sight settings?

Because we hold the gun differently at the moment of firing? Or something else?

Two examples from my personal expierence;
#1) back when my Dad and I were shooting, all his handguns were sighted for him, center hold. When I shot them, in order to hit center, I had to hold 6 o'clock.
#2) myself and a friend, each shooting a different bolt action rifle, trading rifles for alternate shots. CONSISTANTLY 1/2" difference in point of impact @100yds. He would hit dead center with his rifle, and 1/2" high with mine, and the same for me, dead on with mine, 1/2" high with his. Both rifles wearing 3x9 scopes.

Now, if we weren't looking through the scopes differently, then what was happening?

I've sighted in rifles and handguns for other people, and have always told them that it would be "on" for me, but might not be for them. And that is exactly what has always happened. Sometimes, my sight in has been perfect for them, and other times, it has been close, but not dead on for them, but dead on for me. IF its a myth, then why does it happen?
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Old November 8, 2012, 07:07 AM   #43
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44 Amp asks about the comment stating everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently and my counter that it's a myth:
Quote:
If its a myth, then why have I seen, and experienced people having different points of impact using the same sight settings?

Because we hold the gun differently at the moment of firing? Or something else?
The reason different people get different points of impact with the same sight settings is as I explained before; we all don't hold the firearm the exact same way. The firearm recoils in different amounts and in different directions while the bullet's going down the barrel.

Our eyes all will see the same sight picture with scopes as well as with open or aperture front and rear sights when they're aligned the same way on the target. The exact same thing happens when a digital camera mounted on a sturdy tripod and focused at some object and its perfectly centered on something. Everyone behind it looking at the image on the LCD display sees it the same regardless of where they are behind it. That image on the camera's sensor is done exactly the same way our eyes focus it on our retina; there ain't one bit of difference. Every one behind that camera will see exactly the same image and everything appears the same.

Those not believing this might consider asking their favorite eye doctor about it. If those professionals don't convince one otherwise, then maybe those disbelievers should explain why rays of light travel through sights differently for different people and what laws of physics change to make that happen depending on the person looking through the sights.

A good way to see just the differences in how one uses their trigger hand on a rifle is to mount a laser pointer on it adjusted to put the spot at the point of aim. Then have someone watch them dry fire the rifle and see what direction and how much it moves when the firing pin falls. Most folks are pretty surprised at how much they jerk the rifle off its point of aim from where it was just before the firing pin fell. Then see what happens when several people do this with the same rifle.

Last edited by Bart B.; November 8, 2012 at 09:49 AM.
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Old November 8, 2012, 01:25 PM   #44
bipe215
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Aarond,


I put a Timney trigger in my 452 and it tightened things up a bit. The factory trigger on mine was a little rough.

Steve
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Old November 8, 2012, 02:28 PM   #45
aarondhgraham
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Hello bipe215,,,

I've resisted doing any modifications to the rifle as yet,,,
I haven't even tried to adjust the trigger on it,,,
It's already so much nicer than my others.

I want to tighten up any of the human elements first,,,
I'm trying to not be the one who throws money at a problem.

Except ammo of course,,,
I'll spend as much on that as needed.

But thanks for the suggestion,,,
I wasn't aware Timney made a trigger for it.

Aarond

.
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Old November 8, 2012, 07:13 PM   #46
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A couple of low cost improvements available from a fellow, I think his name was Eric Brooks:

- a lower weight spring for the trigger, and

- an aperture to replace the rear u-notch.

When I was looking, I think you could get both for $20.
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Old November 9, 2012, 03:02 AM   #47
phil mcwilliam
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Arrond, your 61 & having trouble shooting with iron sights - buy a scope for your CZ & start enjoying the potential accuracy of this fine .22. Everyones eyes deteriorate at some stage & you've done better than some if youre still shooting iron sights in your 60's.
As for having other people sight your rifles in for you, I can relate a story of some 25 years ago. My brother & I went to a rifle range together. He was most impressed with his scoped Marlin 39A, putting 5 shots through the same hole at 50 yards shooting over sandbag rest. I could also put 5 shots through the same hole at 50 yards with my brothers Marlin 39A, BUT the 2 groups were over 1 inch apart. My brother is left handed & I'm right handed, maybe this caused the difference , but it sure highlighted the fact many years ago to me, that 2 people can definately shoot to different zero with the same rifle.
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Old November 9, 2012, 09:04 PM   #48
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While I admire the effort to improve by practicing a lot, you must also make an effort to avoid reinforcing bad habits. If you want to shoot well, it is worthwhile to have someone teach you. It takes less than a hundred repetitions to form a habit, it takes thousands to break one.

Find a local club that teaches marksmanship fundamentals.
Read books or military field manuals that are intended to tech people how to shoot.
Attend an Appleseed where the volunteers spend a weekend teaching you how to shoot.
Take a training class at a facility that caters to the customer experience.

Don't obsess over your zero. Just circle your group with a marker and adjust so the point of aim is roughly in the middle. I don't think a deer is going to wait around to see if the statistical center of a large number of shots is where it should be.

As you eliminate one bad habit at a time, the position and shape of your groups will change. Learn the relationship between the clicks on your sights and the number of inches on the target, then adjust as often as you need.

And focus your eye on the front sight.
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Old November 11, 2012, 02:55 PM   #49
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There sure is a lot of going back and forth about whether one shooter's zero is the same as another's, I'm glad I brought it up I do know that the Army requires each soldier to zero his/her own rifle, if those zeros were all the same I don't think there would be any point. They would just assign one soldier to take care of all the rifles in the unit, right?

Aarond, I think what you are really asking for is confirmation that your rifle is capable of shooting groups of X size, that would set your mind at ease that your groups of larger than X size are your responsibility and not the rifle's.
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Old November 11, 2012, 04:02 PM   #50
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Proper Sight alignment and trigger control is critical with iron sights. While I'm not going into every detail about how to properly align sights and manipulate the trigger without moving the gun, there is one other thing I did not see on the topic when skimming through the responses. Front sight Focus.

When you are shooting iron sights it is critical that your focus is on the front sight rather than on the target. Get your position squared away and solid, keep a natural point of aim so you are not muscularly forcing your sights onto the target, align the sights with the target, control your breathing, FOCUS on the front sight and gently but deliberately manipulate the trigger.

Target focus will produce erratic groups that will drive you nuts and make you question every thing. Practice will reinforce it and shrink the groups. I have seen it many times with experienced competitive shooters who know how to shoot and are doing everything else correct.
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