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View Poll Results: 10mm vs .357
10mm with 220 gr Double Tap HC's 57 45.24%
.357 with 180 gr Buffalo Bore HC's 69 54.76%
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Old November 11, 2012, 11:46 AM   #51
481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmortimer:
The .357 has more energy, better SD, better penetration for the 10th time. There is no factory 10mm gun/ammo that will outdo a 4" .357 with 180 grain bullets from Buffalo Bore.
So kinetic energy, sectional density and "better" penetration are "knock down power"?
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Old November 11, 2012, 11:52 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Grump:
Neither one has knockdown power. You are looking at it from a skewed perspective, both are good, which one do you shoot better with?
Yes, I know.

Newton's third law of motion says that a bullet cannot knock a person down merely by its own momentum.

I asked the question not because I subscribe to the misdirected notion of "knock down power", but because some here seem to believe that they have found a way to quantify it.

So far...nothing other than the "same old same old" has materialized.
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Old November 11, 2012, 11:52 AM   #53
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There are many 10mm gun/ammo combos that are easier to shoot than a 4" .357 with BB 180s.
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Old November 11, 2012, 12:05 PM   #54
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^ I agree that most 10mm guns are easier to shoot than some .357s but there are few 10mm in the first place, as it is a niche cartridge and is not popular by any measure. I want to get a 10mm and a 460 Rowland for that matter, but every thread has a post saying, the 10mm is more powerful and the .357 only surpasses the 10mm in "long barrels." I'm just trying to keep it real.
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Old November 12, 2012, 01:31 AM   #55
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In length and height, my 10mm longslide 1911 is fairly comparable to the GP100 4" I used to own.

The longslide 1911, firing hot Norma 200gr, is more controllable for me than was my GP100 with 180gr BB HC.

A G20SF is comparable in volume to my 3" S&W 13. There is a reason I normally shoot light .357 158gr in the model 13. Heavier recoiling magnums are not much fun in it.

To achieve comfortable controllability with multiple rounds of 180gr BB, for me, requires a well fitted grip on a 6" GP100 or 686 type, or else a Model 27 or 28.

If I want to shoot a gun that size, and am worried about 4-legged, fanged things, I have a 6" 629 which beats both the .357 and the 10mm by quite a margin (typically loaded with 255gr Keith HC Buffalo Bore, for woodland use).
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Old November 12, 2012, 07:58 AM   #56
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If I want to shoot a gun that size, and am worried about 4-legged, fanged things, I have a 6" 629 which beats both the .357 and the 10mm by quite a margin (typically loaded with 255gr Keith HC Buffalo Bore, for woodland use).
I can shoot buffalo bores that just might blow up a 629 with a BB 340G +P+ at 1450fps out of my Ruger RH. What your point?

I can get a Dillon 9X25MM 125g can shoot a 125g at 1700 FPS at 800+lbs.

These of which nobody here obviously doesn't acknowlege or respects the dillon.

800LBS

800LBS

I know about energy dumb is quicker out of a lighter load.
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Old November 12, 2012, 10:30 AM   #57
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I have both 10mm and .357 mag in auto handguns and love both, but a 10mm loaded to its original specifications (not those of a longer 40mm that you get in the gun shops) is the better of the two in my opinion. If you are going to shoot pre-loaded factory ammo, the .357 is the better choice .... again in my opinion. As always, YMMV.
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Old November 12, 2012, 10:50 AM   #58
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I can shoot buffalo bores that just might blow up a 629 with a BB 340G +P+ at 1450fps out of my Ruger RH. What your point?
You will not "blow up" a 629 with that, however the cylinder may not be long enough.


Quote:
I can get a Dillon 9X25MM 125g can shoot a 125g at 1700 FPS at 800+lbs.

The Dillon is a wildcat. I do not see ammo anywhere.
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Old November 12, 2012, 12:28 PM   #59
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Redhawk, my friend's .500 would leave your Ruger in the dust. What is your point?

My point was that the differences between power and penetration between 10mm and .357 are not all that much; that in platforms of comparable size, the 10mm may well be more controllable; and that if power or capability vs larger critters is the goal, there are other gun/ammo combinations that are much more capable.

In other words, there isn't enough practical difference for the 10/357 debate to get that heated. The .357 has the edge in velocity, energy, and SD; the 10mm may have the edge in faster shots on target, and will probably have the edge in round capacity, but they are more similar than not.
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Old November 12, 2012, 08:47 PM   #60
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The 10mm has a harder knock down power because I have killed many large animals (deer) with both. I have ACTUALLY seen the effect of both rounds with field dressing and butchering the animals afterward. Real field experience trumps any figures in a book because deer can't read. Even most all professional hunters put the 357magnum in a marginal category for hunting deer and reomend a 10mm or 41magnum as a better choice. The 10mm kills faster. Nuff said.
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Old November 12, 2012, 08:58 PM   #61
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The .41 mag is so far beyond the 10mm they should not be mentioned in the same sentence.
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Old November 12, 2012, 10:56 PM   #62
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The .357 has more energy, better SD, better penetration for the 10th time. There is no factory 10mm gun/ammo that will outdo a 4" .357 with 180 grain bullets from Buffalo Bore.
Buffalo bore isn't the only ammo company. Double Tap produces a load using 200 gr 10mm bullets that chronograph 1315 fps from my G-20 with a bit over 750 ft lbs energy. Buffalo Bore shows their load only 60 fps faster from a 4" barrel, but with a 20 gr lighter bullet. Do the math, but 200 Gr @ 1315 vs 180 gr @ 1375 is about as close to a tie as you're going to get if you believe in energy. But it is my opinion the larger caliber, heavier bullet at virtually the same energy is a more effectve round.

But forget barrel length, lets compare comparable size guns. Compared to a full size 3" revolver the 4.5" 10mm is still an inch shorter, 14 oz lighter, holds 2.5X more ammo and certainly generates more energy. Using www.buffalobore.com as a reference a 3" revolver is slower with 180 gr bullets than the 10mm is with 200 gr bullets. Just to equal the 10mm with a 4" 357 revolver you have to go to an even heavier, more cumbersome gun.

And barrel length is huge. If you choose a 6" or longer 357 it will easily beat 10mm. For a hunting gun the longer barreled 357 is a far better choice. The longer barrel gives enough speed to be the clear winner. They also tend to be more accurate and with better triggers. For woods defense either will work, but I prefer the 10mm for the reasons cited above.

A size comparison



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Old November 12, 2012, 11:06 PM   #63
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Generally speaking the 10mm will out do the 357 magnum

How ever my Coonan spits 125 grain buffalo bore out at about 1800 FPS (about 900 foot pounds) with its 6 inch barrel. Granted this is not the typical 6 inch 357 magnum and its using the hottest ammo I know of.

here is a link with pictures http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495750




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Old November 13, 2012, 01:32 AM   #64
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In 1974 I shot a griz in Alaska. Self defense, two shots in the chest 8' away and she didn't go down right away. Ruger security six, 158gr plated hp.
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Old November 13, 2012, 01:43 AM   #65
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Deja Vu, nice grips. Sarge's rattlensnakes, right? I have some of his spinal stingray on order for my Hunter Custom commander.
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Old November 13, 2012, 01:44 AM   #66
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Deja Vu, nice grips. Sarge's rattlensnakes, right? I have some of his spinal stingray on order for my Hunter Custom commander.
yes they are nice looking and durrable
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple
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Old November 13, 2012, 08:07 AM   #67
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The Dillon is a wildcat. I do not see ammo anywhere.
Yes, that's for sure, but, I don't see much 10mm ammo floating around much either. That's why God invented "mail order" I been MO sense the early 80s (Have to miss the COD. LOL).

TBS, I have my own great source's, and I don't fool around when it comes to a good deal, I buy up and it hurts at first, but coming up range day (?) I'm golden.

Quote:
Redhawk, my friend's .500 would leave your Ruger in the dust. What is your point?


No point, much! This is about 10mm vs .357mag.

Quote:
The .41 mag is so far beyond the 10mm they should not be mentioned in the same sentence.


You just did!
Now .41mag should not ......44mag.........Blah blah blah
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Old November 13, 2012, 08:50 AM   #68
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I'd take a Glock 20 with its 15 round mag any day over a .357 with 6 or maybe 7 rounds. Heck, I'd take the G20 over even a .44 mag. In a bear charge I wouldn't trust myself to be as accurate as I am at the range, and the greater capacity and faster follow-up shots of the Glock would trump the greater power of the .44 mag for me. Unless, of course, we're dealing with something bigger and meaner than a black bear; in that case I'd want all the power I could get
.



I agree 100%!!!!!!! more rounds of almost the same devastation works for me all the time
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Old November 13, 2012, 12:08 PM   #69
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When I spent time wandering the backwoods where small black & brown bears might be encountered, I typically carried a .44 Magnum or stoutly handloaded Ruger .45 Colt.

Alternatively, I also often carried one of my .357's, also stoutly handloaded with bullets capable of good penetration, but considered the .357 Magnum to be a medium-bore cartridge. The prevailing thought in those days was that while it was capable of killing a medium-skinned dangerous/feral animal of small to medium size, it was still a bit on the light side for bear.

When the 10mm Norma arrived on the scene, I was intrigued, but didn't see any real advantage over my revolvers, especially since the available 10mm pistols (and ammunition) were rather limited. The .41 Magnum was a more versatile cartridge, and I'd much sooner use one than a 10mm.

S&W's occasional release of 10mm revolvers made a bit of an in-road for handgun for hunters who favored the 10mm.

Nowadays it seems to be handloaders and a few of the smaller custom ammunition companies keeping the 10mm popular enough so a number of gun companies are offering models chambered in it.

While I'd sooner carry a .357 Magnum (or maybe a .40 S&W, with 180gr loads) with me in the backwoods where feral dogs or cats (mountain lions) might be a potential danger, I'd not feel under-equipped with a 10mm ... but I'd still rather have one of my .44's or a stoutly handloaded Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .45 Colt at my side for any larger, more dangerous animals.

I've used a couple of my .44's to demonstrate how they can be used, even loaded with up to stout 315gr JHP's, to max out a qual course-of-fire being run for semiauto duty pistols (and do so faster than virtually all of the 9mm shooters runni8ng through the qual that day). It's just the loading (or reloading, if you'd rather ) that adds an extra moment.
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Old November 13, 2012, 01:15 PM   #70
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I'm going to go with "neither".

I'm sure .357 and 10mm are both adequate for killing a black bear with a well placed shot.

I'm also sure that a well placed shot is largely a fantasy-event in an actual bear charge (between the body alarm response, and the fact that a bear moves very very fast). There are reasons why people who make a habit of hunting especially dangerous game in close quarters tend towards monstrously huge magnum rifles (rather than the minimal calibers which might work with a well placed shot).


If your life is actually in realistic danger to a black bear, consider selling/buying firearms to best suit your protection.

needs:
as much damage as possible within a given carry size/weight.
immediate ready-to-fire operation
reliable

1) .44 magnum 4" revolver: reliable, powerful, no safety fiddling, can use .44 special for home defense/practice.

2) Glock 21 with .460 Rowland conversion: lightweight, reliable, powerful, no safety fiddling, can swap barrel/spring to revert to .45acp for home defense/practice. (or a .460 1911, if you practice till the safety is an automatic reflex that takes zero time while drawing).

Or get a mossberg 500 18.5" 12ga. (6-shot, synthetic, pistol grip, alloy receiver). It's certainly heavier than a handgun (somewhere around 6lbs if you keep to all the lightest options), but handguns don't fire 3" 12ga slugs, and the longer sight radius will result in superior accuracy vs. a handgun, especially under stress.

Beyond that, make it a gun that "points well for you" so that you can acquire sight picture and start firing as fast as possible. And has a good trigger which you are intimately familiar with, so that you can have the best chance of squeezing off accurate shots in a situation which will greatly interfere with your accuracy. Practice with it, a lot. And get a holster which allows you very a smooth and quick draw.

Personally I'd go with the G21 with .460 rowland conversion. It's the lightest of the bunch, hits arguably harder than .44 magnum, converts back & forth to .45acp very easily. But I have a glock bias, and I'm extremely proficient with them.
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Old November 13, 2012, 01:43 PM   #71
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^ Agree, love the 460 Rowland platform. Want one too. But again, companies like Buffalo Bore put the .41 mag well beyond the 460 Rowland. Buffalo Bore has also put the .44 mag in another stratosphere, beyond hottest .45 Colt and getting towards the bottom of the .454
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Old November 14, 2012, 04:18 AM   #72
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Post#69

fastbolt

Quote:
Nowadays it seems to be handloaders and a few of the smaller custom ammunition companies keeping the 10mm popular enough so a number of gun companies are offering models chambered in it.
10mm as you know is pretty much an auto load, and the .357 is pretty much a revolver load.

TBS, if you had only one load for both, which is more versatile between them both?

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Old November 14, 2012, 01:54 PM   #73
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I have both a 10mm (custom Glock G20L) and 357mag (Uberti SA Cavalry) and can tell you that out of longer barrels, G20L at 6" and Uberti at 7.5", a hot loaded 10mm produces slightly higher velocities even shooting a heavier, larger diameter bullet.

My chrono testing results at 6,100ft asl and 84° day show:

My 158grn Zero JSP 357mag with 16.5grns H110 (max Hodgdon load) shot from my 7.5" SA Cavalry pistol produced 1,382fps and 670ft/lbs ME.



My 165grn Speer Gold Dots with 10.0grns Power Pistol (max Alliant load) shot from my 6.0" custom Glock G20L pistol produced 1,503fps and 827ft/lbs ME.



Both calibers benefit from being fired out of long barrels, both produce significant performance, and both are very powerful rounds but the larger diameter, heavier 10mm bullet traveling 120fps faster produces considerably more muzzle energy. In addition, the custom ammo makers have super hot ammo that produces even more of an advantage for the 10mm when both are shot from a 6" barrel. Add to this that the Glock carries 3 times the ammo on board and the advantage to the semi auto is significant.

Further, the design of a semi-auto pistol vs a revolver, whether single or double action allows for significantly faster followup shots because of it's superior grip shape, considerably lower bore axis, and in the case of the Glock, a flexing polymer frame. These 3 differences work together to dramatically reduce both the muzzle rise and recoil impulse on the wrist and grip which reduces felt recoil dramatically.

I carry my SA Cav when in the field with my 357mag leverguns. When just hiking in the Rockies or when hunting, I carry my custom G20L with the magwell removed and 17+1 rounds of 200grn Hardcast as protection against any threat.

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Old November 14, 2012, 02:12 PM   #74
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Got tired of waiting for your input Steve, About time!

Quote:
The 10mm has a harder knock down power because I have killed many large animals (deer) with both. I have ACTUALLY seen the effect of both rounds with field dressing and butchering the animals afterward. Real field experience trumps any figures in a book because deer can't read. Even most all professional hunters put the 357magnum in a marginal category for hunting deer and reomend a 10mm or 41magnum as a better choice. The 10mm kills faster. Nuff said.
How many is many? While real world experience definitely accounts for something but if I take a coin and flip it 10 times and it comes up heads 7 outta the 10 does that mean the coin is skewed towards heads? What about if I flip 100 and it comes out 55 outta 100? It may take 1000's upon 1000's of tosses to get the real average which of coarse is 50/50. Sorry to say that odds are your kills aren't nearly a large enough sampling to prove much. That's the problem with ALL cartridge analysis'. Also we/I/you have no idea if your were using the worst possible choice for the .357 and the best for the 10 or vice versa. That's why you have to take analysis and toss in some ballistics and add a good dose of common sense. Fact is if you nail a bear in the noggin with either using proper bullets it's gonna be a tie, plunk that same bear in the foot with either and it's a tie. IMO, not enough difference even with questionable hits and it comes completely down to platform preference.

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Old November 14, 2012, 04:14 PM   #75
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I have never seen a 10mm that can pull off 900 FPE from a 6 inch barrel like that Coonan Does.

Deja Vu I read your review again those are pretty impressive numbers. I am still thinking about getting a Coonan but I am saving for Gifts for the Holidays.

granted dead is dead.
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