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View Poll Results: 10mm vs .357
10mm with 220 gr Double Tap HC's 57 45.24%
.357 with 180 gr Buffalo Bore HC's 69 54.76%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 4, 2012, 11:56 PM   #1
Irish B
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10mm vs .357

This is another bear question. Sorry guys. I was in the market for a semi-auto, .45 acp particularly, when I fell in love with the 10mm. I've heard the 10 is the only semi-auto people would trust in a 4 legged defensive situation. I like to hike and bike a lot. I've always trusted my .357 with 180gr hardcast Buffalo Bore. When I picked up my 10mm I grabbed some hornady xtp for HD but also a box of 220 gr double tap hard casts. Can this replace my .357 as my trail gun? It has a 14 round mag but from what I hear you can only get off maybe 3 shots in a bear charge which brings me to another point. It takes a second to take off the safety on a semi. In the same amount of time I could have already had a shot off with my revolver. I would love some honest productive input. I see bear A LOT and have only been charged once, which luckily was a bluff charge. Its enough so have a side arm on the trail in my opinion is a must. . . and my Remi 870 with 3" Black Magic slugs isnt an option!
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Old November 5, 2012, 12:18 AM   #2
jmortimer
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The .357 has better SD and better penetration and more energy. 10mm will cover most anything a .357 can do so they are pretty much interchangeable in the woods. On the street added firepower of 10mm would be an advantage. So go with your 10mm. For big dangerous stuff you would want .44, .45 .454, .460, .475, .500
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Old November 5, 2012, 12:24 AM   #3
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I did a survey of a few calibers (including 10mm and .357Mag) some years ago of all the commercially available ammunition from companies who posted specifications for their ammunition online.

Comparing 10mm to .357Mag reveals that they're pretty similar by any measure of performance you prefer.

.357Mag has a slight energy advantage over the 10mm with the light bullet loadings and has slightly better sectional density in similar bullet weights due to the smaller bullet diameter.

10mm has a slight momentum advantage over the .357Mag with the heavy bullet loadings, seems to be able to handle slightly heavier bullets and has a slight diameter/caliber advantage.

The two things that are clear are:

1. These two cartridges obviously top the service pistol class in terms of raw performance.

2. Neither caliber begins to match the capability of the .41Mag or .44Mag calibers. It's common to hear the 10mm compared to the .41Mag, but that's not because the 10mm is that powerful, it's because some ammo makers have chosen to offer very lightly loaded options for the .41Mag caliber.
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Old November 5, 2012, 12:33 AM   #4
Irish B
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It's just black bear so no need to get out the big guns, although we have some big blacks up here. I have a friend who is the head of fish and game up here and the last they weighed one of the local big males he was 480 lbs. So that's of decent size. That and my first line of defense is bear spray. Honestly It'll probably come down to which gun i'm a better shot with.
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Old November 5, 2012, 12:50 AM   #5
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It takes a second to take off the safety on a semi. In the same amount of time I could have already had a shot off with my revolver.
Consider the GLOCK G20 there is no safety to worry with.
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Old November 5, 2012, 02:23 AM   #6
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I'd take a Glock 20 with its 15 round mag any day over a .357 with 6 or maybe 7 rounds. Heck, I'd take the G20 over even a .44 mag. In a bear charge I wouldn't trust myself to be as accurate as I am at the range, and the greater capacity and faster follow-up shots of the Glock would trump the greater power of the .44 mag for me. Unless, of course, we're dealing with something bigger and meaner than a black bear; in that case I'd want all the power I could get.
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Old November 5, 2012, 07:03 AM   #7
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I can dump about a dozen rounds into a six inch target with my glock 20 in the time it takes me to dump six rounds into a six inch target with a 357 revolver. Nothing wrong with 357, infact it's one of the best man stoppers of all time, but when the ten can do it faster with heavier bullets...
There's a lot of energy sitting in a glock 20, around 11,250 lbs in mine right now with a full mag of buffalo bore. That's a 50bmg.
Also when you compare barrel leingths a glock 4.6" is to be compared to a 3" revolver because revolvers are measured from ahead of the cylinder and autos are measured from the base of the cartridge.
Both are great though and some will never warm up to an auto for woods carry and that's fine. I'm sure whatever you pick you'll be better off than many.
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Old November 5, 2012, 09:26 AM   #8
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Revolvers have a cylinder gap which knocks off some steam, so it's apples and oranges on that one. put the .357 in a Coonan and it goes even faster. Regardless, all other points are well taken, and the 10mm makes sense. Let's not go down the .357 v 10mm road again, because in factory guns, the .357 has the edge. Let's just love the 10mm for what it is, a really good idea. And no, the 10mm would be far worse for a large bear charge as opposed to a .44 mag with twice as much energy and a heavier bullet and better SD.
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Old November 5, 2012, 09:38 AM   #9
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The problem with these polls is they limit the ammo selection.

I voted 357, but I wouldn't use that ammo. I like the 150-158 grn LSWCs for my 357.

I've shot some awful big critters with my Lyman 358477 bullets (150 grn LSWC). They worked just fine. Really hard on bowling pins though.
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Old November 5, 2012, 09:49 AM   #10
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JohnKSa pretty much summed it up in terms of terminal performance: with heavy non-expanding bullets in top-end loadings it's pretty much a case of six in one hand and half a dozen in the other. Because of this, it pretty much comes down to whether you prefer a revolver or semi-auto.

As to your concerns about the manual safety, in an ergonomically designed gun like a 1911, the safety takes only a small fraction of a second to disengage and, with practice, you can fairly easily have it swept off by the time your sights are aligned. The semi-auto will also hold more rounds and give less recoil for a given caliber and size of gun than a revolver will. A semi-auto is also less expensive to produce and thus usually costs less than a revolver of comparable quality though your options will be much more limited in 10mm.

The revolver, however, is not picky in the least about bullet shape. Very blunt bullets like wadcutters can be used in nearly any revolver but may not feed reliably in semi-automatics. Revolvers are also much less picky about the power level of the ammunition so you could use more lightly loaded ammunition for practice or uban carry and full-power fodder for woods carry without the need to swap recoil springs. A revolver can be fired repeatedly at contact distance while most locked breech semi-autos would be pushed out of battery in such a situation (possibly important should the bear already be on top of you). Finally, the revolver can be had in a much more compact package for a given power level than a semi-auto can (.357 Magnum can be had in small, 5-shot revolvers as light as 11.4oz unloaded).

Really, we need to know what kind of bears you're concerned about as there's a big difference between black bears and grizzly bears. A .357 Magnum or 10mm would be an adequate defensive handgun for black bears but grizzlies are a lot bigger and really call for a larger caliber if you can handle it. For grizzlies, the better choices are mostly revolvers as they more commonly come in calibers like .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, and .500 S&W though there are a few suitable semi-auto cartridges like .45 Win Mag, .475 Wildey, and .50 AE though guns and ammunition for these will be both uncommon and expensive.
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:02 AM   #11
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^ Add my favorite, the 460 Rowland
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:04 AM   #12
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If you do choose to use 10mm with the 220gr ammo, be sure to take it to the range first. I know some guns (cough glock 20) will not stabailize them with the factory barrel.

As far as the question gues, I would take the 10mm every time. I'n order to really get the potential out of .357 you really need a decent legnth barrel. I for one am not interested in carrying around or trying to unholster quickly anthing larger then a 3" barrel revolver.


If you would like to see some tests comparing the two rounds in ballistic gel go on youtube and search for TNoutdoors9. The results are quite interesting.
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:13 AM   #13
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FWIW the Finnish Army adopted the Glock 20 as their sidearm for patrols in the artic circle. Polar bear territory.
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:16 AM   #14
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I'n order to really get the potential out of .357 you really need a decent legnth barrel. I for one am not interested in carrying around or trying to unholster quickly anthing larger then a 3" barrel revolver.
While a longer barrel will almost always give higher velocities with any cartridge, the .357 Magnum isn't exactly a pop gun out of a short barrel. Buffalo Bore advertises their 180gr Hardcast Heavy .357 Magnum loading at 1302fps from a 3" S&W J-Frame.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=100

By comparison, Buffalo Bore's 180gr JHP Heavy 10mm load does 1311fps from the 4.6" barrel of a Glock 20.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=114
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:23 AM   #15
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^ I like the 10mm, but every single thread spreads the same old myth about needing a long barrel to get the .357 to work. No matter how many times I post the facts, we get the same thing. Thanks for saving me the trouble. Out of factory guns, the .357, more gun, more energy, better SD, more energy. But as the poll shows, there is a lot of love for the 10mm, rightly so.
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Old November 5, 2012, 12:13 PM   #16
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I voted 357 Mag. It does not take a back seat until I move up to the 44 Mag.
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Old November 5, 2012, 12:27 PM   #17
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With the best loads it is a virtual tie in performance. I have both, but always reach for the Glock 10mm. My Glock 20 is shorter than a 3" revolver and almost a full pound lighter with 2.5X more ammo. There is nothing that small that comes close to the power and ammo capacity.

As a trail gun the 10mm makes a lot of sense. As a hunting gun a longer barreled revolver will beat the performance, have a better trigger and longer sight radius for improved accuracy.
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Old November 5, 2012, 01:38 PM   #18
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I own both a S&W model 686 in 357 and a glock 20 in 10mm. They each hold their own, and each have rode into the woods with me.
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Old November 5, 2012, 03:23 PM   #19
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If I was in griz country I would more than likely have a shotgun loaded with some realy hot slugs, and buck shot. Backed up with an Ruger Alaskan in .454 Cassul.

For the sake of awnesering I would choose either, though I would make sure they were either loaded with hard cast bullets, or some form of non expanding bullets to get maximum penetration. For most black bears either would do the job.
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Old November 5, 2012, 03:47 PM   #20
Irish B
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First of all the .357 is a Ruger SP101 3" and the 10mm is not a glock it's a Tanfoglio Witness. I already own both guns and have shot both rounds from them and personally I feel like I can do faster followups from the 10mm. As stated earlier, I live in Black Bear country. A .44 would be absolutely unnecessary and over kill especially for everyday carry. Why do I need to absolutely obliterate the bear with a .44 or larger cartridge when a .357 or 10mm would work just fine. And I bet a well placed shot from a heavy loaded .357 or 10mm would drop a grizz. Keep in mind I said well placed shot and which one of us would have the nerve to stand their ground and make a well placed shot in a full on charge. But If I was out walking in brownie country I would take no less than my 870 loaded with black magic slugs or a lever action 45-70 or I suppose i'd consider a .458 socom conversion for my AR
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Old November 5, 2012, 07:33 PM   #21
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I am also in blackie country and ours get up to 600 lbs or so. I trust my skin to a Glock 29 everyday while there. Don't even own a .357, but I prefer autos. Back down to .45 ACP while in the concrete jungle that I am leaving.

In Grizzly country...well I probably just wouldn't be there.
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:11 PM   #22
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It's just black bear so no need to get out the big guns, although we have some big blacks up here. I have a friend who is the head of fish and game up here and the last they weighed one of the local big males he was 480 lbs.
Quote:
I live in Black Bear country. A .44 would be absolutely unnecessary and over kill especially for everyday carry. Why do I need to absolutely obliterate the bear with a .44 or larger cartridge when a .357 or 10mm would work just fine.
I'm not sure a .44 would be "overkill" on a 480 lb Black Bear.

A .44 loaded to 1000 fps or so with a hard cast bullet, isn't much harder to shoot than a hot loaded 10mm or .357, if any. And it's not going to "obliterate" a bear.
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:20 PM   #23
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I carry one of my Smith .44's when I'm in bear country. I was carrying a .45 Auto with hot hard cast in it, until I read one account of a defensive bear shooting, where the shooter had to fire one handed, with the barrel pressed into the bear's head.
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Old November 5, 2012, 10:38 PM   #24
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By the way, those who are fans of velocity when it comes to performance on big dangerous things, might find Randy Garrett's piece on penetration and velocity interesting.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Quote:
Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.
A bear will not be stopped by the energy produced by a handgun cartridge. They will be stopped by a bullet that penetrates deep enough. Excess velocity can reduce penetration.
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Old November 6, 2012, 11:26 AM   #25
481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish B:
This is another bear question. Sorry guys. I was in the market for a semi-auto, .45 acp particularly, when I fell in love with the 10mm. I've heard the 10 is the only semi-auto people would trust in a 4 legged defensive situation. I like to hike and bike a lot. I've always trusted my .357 with 180gr hardcast Buffalo Bore. When I picked up my 10mm I grabbed some hornady xtp for HD but also a box of 220 gr double tap hard casts. Can this replace my .357 as my trail gun? It has a 14 round mag but from what I hear you can only get off maybe 3 shots in a bear charge which brings me to another point. It takes a second to take off the safety on a semi. In the same amount of time I could have already had a shot off with my revolver. I would love some honest productive input. I see bear A LOT and have only been charged once, which luckily was a bluff charge. Its enough so have a side arm on the trail in my opinion is a must. . . and my Remi 870 with 3" Black Magic slugs isnt an option!
I don't think that there is much difference between the two. Given the loads you are considering, it looks like you are prmiarily interested in maximum penetration (rightly so) against bear.

Using the Schwartz bullet penetration model to evaluate the two rounds you are considering, the 10mm 220 gr. WFN @ 1300 fps would penetrate to a depth of 42.85 inches in soft tissue while the .357 180 gr. WFN @ 1300 fps would penetrate to a depth of 45.06 inches in soft tissue.

I think either will get the job done.
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