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Old November 3, 2012, 01:49 PM   #26
PH/CIB
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We just had a big 22 long rifle shoot in Missouri with 22 rifles and handguns. I took four 22 pistols a Ruger Mark III with a Burris 2x handgun scope and a Ruger Mark III with a Ultradot Red Dot Scope and a Browning Buckmark and a Sig Trailside with iron sights. Took four Ruger 10/22 rifles and a CZ 511 rifle all with scopes others brought a Browning semi auto, a Mossberg bolt action and a vintage Remington pump action.

We tried out various 22 ammo and had a blast with a lot of rounds going downrange, I love the 22 long rifle round but it would be near my last choice for self defense.

That being said I have two women friends who are using it for self defense, they are getting their concealed weapons permits and are shooting CCI stingers, one has the new Ruger SR22 pistol and the other lady has not bought a handgun yet. They both were at the shoot and on close self defense ranges at human torso targets shooting dead center mass they were keeping most of the rounds on target shooting speed drills. As with any caliber advised them to keep shooting until the threat was no longer a threat and then no longer shoot, which may or may not take longer with a 22 caliber weapon.

I am hoping as they get comfortable shooting that they graduate to a 9mm or 38 Special, but even if they do not, it is comforting to know they are carrying a firearm and learning self defense.
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Old November 3, 2012, 02:26 PM   #27
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Old November 3, 2012, 02:28 PM   #28
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That being said I have two women friends who are using it for self defense, they are getting their concealed weapons permits and are shooting CCI stingers, one has the new Ruger SR22 pistol and the other lady has not bought a handgun yet.
Perhaps suggest they lose the Stingers and use 40 grain solids. Less noise and flash, with more penetration.
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Old November 3, 2012, 02:44 PM   #29
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"Perhaps suggest they lose the Stingers and use 40 grain solids. Less noise and flash, with more penetration." Quote by Elmer

Roger that Elmer. The gals had tried a variety of 22 ammo through the Ruger SR22 and even though Ruger claims it will function reliably with all ammo, they claimed CCI Stingers were the most reliable.

I just use Federal Valu Pack and I prefer 22 long rifle ammo in the 1200 fps range but I do not use 22 long rifle for self defense. By the way Federal Value pack is 4 cents a round and Stingers are 13 cents a round.

Since the gals wanted the CCI Stingers I looked at probably a dozen ammo sites for them and they were out or backordered, finally found them at Cabelas for $65 for 500 rounds and ordered 4000 rounds.
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Old November 3, 2012, 03:26 PM   #30
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The 22LR cartirdge has its place in the SD arsenal. It would not be my first choice for nightstand or even CC, but if I ever had to get out of Dodge, I would carry a thousand rounds with me along with a Ruger Charger.
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Old November 3, 2012, 05:13 PM   #31
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From SeekerTwo:

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The point is....there is a place for the .22lr in a SD battery. The point is.... the .22lr round will cause damage enough to a BG that will allow you to survive....not bounce off a BG's hide and make him mad like many here seem to think. The point is.....even the lowly .22lr is a dangerous round and should be respected and utilized as such. The point is....the .22lr is another tool in the SD toolbox that can be useful in certain circumstances.

As I said before, I'm not getting rid of my 9mm or .357Mag anytime soon. But that LCR-22 I've been eyeing may be more useful than I initially thought.

Not looking to make any converts here....just to start some critical thinking...
The 22 as a self defense round has been discussed here many times over the years (see the search function) and will likely be discussed here many times still to come. It has been discussed even more in books and magazines prior to the internet and at ranges, gun shows and gunatoriums. Few here, or in any of the other places that I've mentioned, think that the 22 is a useless round or that it will bounce off of jackets and such. (It does tend to bounce off skulls a good bit though and can be stopped, when fired from a 3" barrel, by a 300 page book, I seen that in person.)The consensus, over many decades, is that as a self defense round it's far down the list. I guns of the same size you can generally carry more potent calibers. It falls into the category of "if that's all you've got, or all you can handle, it's better than a small rock." Over the years a good many experienced people have put in a good deal of critical thought on the matter.

The problem with the 22 for self defense is that it is far less likely to stop violent aggressive action "right now" than many other rounds. It is more likely, several times over, that an aggressor will take multiple hits from a 22 and show no immediate effect, than with a number of other self defense calibers. So if a person can, choose the round that will be more likely to cause violent action against you to be stopped right away rather than minutes or hours later.

The old adage that you should look to get a gun that you can shoot well in the most powerful round you can handle and still shoot well in a gun that is matched to it's purpose, is true. If you want a small hideout gun and the 22 is all you can handle well then go for it.

But in guns of the same size you can chamber more potent rounds so why not take those? 22 WMR, 32 H&R, 32 Magnum, 32 acp in a Seecamp or Berretta, 380acp, 32 NAA, 9mm Makarov, etc.

A 22 and a thousand rounds is good to have anywhere. But that and something that tends to stop folks sooner, is much more powerful and breaks bone when it hits, is better still.

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Last edited by tipoc; November 3, 2012 at 05:20 PM.
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Old November 3, 2012, 06:24 PM   #32
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I consider the 22LR to be a viable SD cartridge in the proper firearm using good quality proven ammo. It is an experts SD cartridge and must be used resolutely and with precision.
One good example of a suitable SD 22 pistol would be the Beretta Model 70, which has combat history with the Mossad.
Another might be the Ruger SR22. It is combat configured with good sights and a decent trigger...Mine has proven 100% reliable and very accurate. Loaded with MiniMag solids, in the hands of a person who has spent hours shooting thousands of rounds...let's just say I wouldn't want to face that regardless of what more conventional SD caliber pistol was in my hand.
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Old November 3, 2012, 07:31 PM   #33
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"If you are lucky enough to travel around the world armed and doing it mainly alone do yourself a favor always carry a .22 pistol, regardless of anything else you pack."

How many of us can travel the world with any type of firearm, especially these days?

I could copy and paste other passages from this post, but that would only reinforce the idiocy.

Yes, the .22LR has a place. It is not in your /James Bond/idiotic Hollywood fantasy.
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Old November 3, 2012, 07:41 PM   #34
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Some information regarding how the Mossad used the 22 lr cartridge from a handgun is available on the internet and other sources. It was not used primarily as a combat or defensive round. It was used for assassinations. Meaning that they literally walked up to unsuspecting folks and shot them multiple times in the head at point blank range. The guns so used were sometimes suppressed. The low report of the 22 made them useful for this type work.

There are a few instances of the 22 being used in gunfights. In some cases successfully. But again, rarely.

The Mossad and the IDF standard caliber for defense and combat was and is the 9mm. No army or law enforcement agency issues the 22 as a primary duty sidearm.

The Berretta Model 70 weighs close to a pound and a half and is over 6" in length.

Some 22 pistols (the High Standard for example) were used by the U.S. military and other armies from suppressed handguns to remove sentries during and after WWII. But here again this was head shots from relatively close range and from hiding. Not from open combat or intended for gun fighting.

They were also provided for some pilots as survival tools in the case of forced downing. Here again though the idea was to hunt small game or to signal, not for combat.

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Last edited by tipoc; November 3, 2012 at 07:54 PM.
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Old November 3, 2012, 08:02 PM   #35
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tipoc: So.....shooting someone in the head area with a .22lr for close-range assasination purposes is effective, but shooting someone in the head with a .22lr for self-defense is ineffective?

Also, I don't hear anyone suggesting that the .22lr pistol is the best choice for a gunfight....for me, the 12ga. is minimum caliber for that. Anything in a pistol caliber is, to paraphrase another TFL member, the starting pistol for this fat man's mad dash away from danger. If what I have with me is a .22lr pistol, I won't abandon all hope, either. And I'll try to manage the situation where, if I ever have to shoot a BG, it won't be a gunfight.....I aim to cheat.

amd6547: Good insight. The .22lr is definitely not a beginners pistol. Then again, neither is the .38/.357 j-frame snub. And how many times have beginners here gotten that advice?.....

But, the .22lr medium-frame pistols and revolvers make great beginners guns that can also be pressed into service as SD weapons. Ten rounds from a 617 or 22/45 can definitely change the immediate desires of any BG.....
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Old November 3, 2012, 09:46 PM   #36
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tipoc
<SNIP>A 22 and a thousand rounds is good to have anywhere. But that and something that tends to stop folks sooner, is much more powerful and breaks bone when it hits, is better still.
Even in my scenario, I also would be carrying a more appropriate SD caliber. A few 22LR's to COM would still take a minute to have effect. For 22LR to be truly effective, it needs to be a shot to the eyes, nose, throat, thoracic triangle, or base of skull.

Most folks would not hesitate to carry a snub in 38 for SD, but I'm not sure if they are aware that a 40gr Solid LRN Agulia Interceptor round (this is what I use for non-plinking) from a 10 inch barreled Ruger Charger 10/22 carries as much energy as a range / wadcutter 38 special load or a little less energy than a SD standard pressure 38 special load. Not many of us feel naked carrying a snub in 38 special, though.
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Old November 4, 2012, 09:35 AM   #37
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I am not an advocate of a 22 for selt defense if you can use anything else bigger.

With that said I do carry my LCR-22, 617 S&W, and 4" MK III some of the time, as does my brother. Not everyone who conceal carrys does so worrying about being jumped by thugs. I shoot my concealed carry handguns several times each year while carrying. I shoot Copperheads, CottonMouths and Rattle Snake If I get the chance to. Then we have a deer or whatever seriously injured my vehicles that need finished off. An Armodillo now and again, etc. I find lots of things to shoot at over the course of a year in my rural area. Not to mention plinking opertunities.
I live in a low threat area, and I still carry daily.

I shoot in Defensive Pistol and 2 gun matches. We have a Rimfire Division in Defensive Handgun, and the 22 is a legal BUG round also. In BUG I normally shoot both my 442 and LCR-22. I shoot my MK III and 617 in Rimfire Division some also.
In 2 Gun I shoot my MK III and a Tactical Solutions AR15-22 Upper. We have lots of rimfire entries just due to ammunition expense. Normally everyone makes multiple runs on the course. We charge $10 for the first entry, and $5 for all additional entries. Almost everyone makes atleast 3 runs.
As range staff I get to do my fair share of target pasting. We double tap all targets in the match. The rimfire shooters will have lots of double tap rounds that a single target paster will cover both bullet holes. Not common at all with centerfire.

A 22 can get the job done with multiple hits.
For a survival gun, you can afford to have enough 22 rimfire on hand to feel well armed. Most of us will never stock pile enough centerfire for any serious long term use. Just a matter of $$$. I just picked up another 550 pak of Federal last night at Wal-Mart. I was not low on shells, I just picked up another box, they store well in a Fat 50 ammo can.

The 22 is not a bad choice to carry in a low threat area, where varmints are the main targets of your rounds.

Better close and head to the Gun Show.

Bob
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Old November 4, 2012, 02:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
tipoc: So.....shooting someone in the head area with a .22lr for close-range assasination purposes is effective, but shooting someone in the head with a .22lr for self-defense is ineffective?
A couple of things to note:

One: It's not as easy to shoot someone in the head during a rough and tumble fight than some sometimes think it will be. It's easy to make a head shot when the fella is stationary and you are close to them or you have time for a good aim. Not so easy when both shooter and shootee are moving. The head is a small and bony target. This is one reason we are trained to shoot center of mass.

Two: We spend a lot of time in self defense speaking and training about the importance of shooting to stop aggressive action. In the ranking of calibers more likely to stop a violent person with several shots the .22 is down towards the bottom of that list. It does not penetrate as deeply as service calibers nor disrupt as much tissue. The 22 is a deadly caliber, but not as deadly as others.

Three: A .22 may be just as much a deterrent as any other gun. It could be. But it's not wise in my opinion to count on any gun being a deterrent. You don't carry a gun in the hopes it will be a deterrent. You carry for the time you will need to shoot it to stop someone from being violent to you or others. Don't count on shooting a fella in the butt and he will stop. Assume it won't work and act accordingly.

Four: Most folk who want to carry a gun for self defense or want one for home defense, and who will likely ask our opinions on the matter, are not trained fighters, James Bond Jr. or master assassins. I think we can be more realistic. A round with more pop than the 22 will likely do better. I don't recommend the 22 for that role.

Five: We emphasize the importance of good shot placement. The reality in defensive encounters is that the majority of shots that hit are less than very well placed. There are more near misses from vital areas than hits on vital areas. This is another reason that rounds other than the 22 are better suited for self defense, they simply do more damege when they do hit.

I've carried a Ruger Bearcat, my Mark II, a Browning Buckmark, a S&W M17 and others while out hunting or hiking or around camp etc. They have a role and I've used them. But for defense against humans there are better choices I believe.

Fellas will carry what they like. If you feel the 22 is just as good as a the .380, 9mm, 38Spl., etc have at it.

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Old November 4, 2012, 05:09 PM   #39
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tipoc: OK, by the numbers....

1. We train for center mass shots. We also train for "failure to stop" drills like the Mozambique Drill....two to the chest, one (or more) to the head. Guess we train for head shots, too...

2. Granted....but, as you said, the .22lr is a lethal round.

3. Granted....but the same has been said for any handgun. Show me any handgun, and there will be stories of how it failed to stop a BG.

4 & 5. So, most handgun owners aren't HSLD operators....kinda obvious a point. But how do shooters get better? Practice, practice, practice. And what will encourage new shooters to practice?.....ammo that costs $15/50rds or ammo that costs $15/500rds? And, if a shooter can shoot .22lr best, how would saddling them with a heavier-recoiling, harder to shoot handgun be any advantage? Shot placement is key, remember? How about letting shooters shoot a gun that will save their lives long enough for them to learn how to shoot something more effective?
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Old November 5, 2012, 02:33 AM   #40
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How about letting shooters shoot a gun that will save their lives long enough for them to learn how to shoot something more effective?
I can't stop anyone from shooting anything. Neither would I want to stop folks from doing that or to try. By the same token I can't "let" them do anything either.

Good to see you acknowledge that there are more effective rounds for self defense than the 22. So why not recommend those rounds?

The question we're discussing isn't what to train with. You asked what we thought of the .22 lr as a self defense round. Not what we think of it as a training round. My opinion is that there are better rounds for self defense than the 22 and I don't recommend it for that purpose unless a person has nothing else, can't afford anything else or if a physical condition necessitates it.

That's the issue, do you recommend to new shooters that they rely on the 22l.r. for self defense and as a carry gun for defense against other persons? I don't and I explained why. There are better rounds that increase a fellas chance of surviving a deadly encounter. A simple thing.

Quote:
Show me any handgun, and there will be stories of how it failed to stop a BG.
Yes there are. So part of the question is do you select a round that increases the chance of such a failure or one that is more likely to promote a healthy outcome, at least for you.

Now you asked for people's opinions. You have them. You can see their reasoning. You're under no obligation to agree with it. Do different if you want to.

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Old November 5, 2012, 06:02 AM   #41
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Quote:
The question we're discussing isn't what to train with. You asked what we thought of the .22 lr as a self defense round. Not what we think of it as a training round. My opinion is that there are better rounds for self defense than the 22 and I don't recommend it for that purpose unless a person has nothing else, can't afford anything else or if a physical condition necessitates it.
I don't disagree at all....esp. with everything after "unless". I'm just stating that the .22lr pistol may have some utility as a SD platform that hasn't been considered before now. And I definitely do not see the .22lr as ineffective....you have even made statements to that effect. I think our main disagreement is "What do I feel comfortable with in a SD pistol?" At that point, each person makes their own choice.....and it appears that you & I have made ours.

Quote:
Now you asked for people's opinions. You have them. You can see their reasoning. You're under no obligation to agree with it. Do different if you want to.
And I have thoroughly enjoyed all the discussion on this matter. Thank you. Be well.
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Old November 5, 2012, 06:22 AM   #42
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And what will encourage new shooters to practice?.....ammo that costs $15/50rds or ammo that costs $15/500rds?
Practice doesn't make perfect - that's a myth.
Perfect practice makes perfect.

I stand on the $15/50 side of the fence as being the better choice for perfect practice.
When something is more expensive to use - the added cost of the item makes a person tend to pay attention more to how they use it.

That's true from owning your own house vs renting, right on down the line to ammo for practice.

It's got nothing to do with "trigger time" & everything to do with "quality" time.
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Old November 5, 2012, 06:57 AM   #43
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I totally agree that a 22 isn't a preferred SD round, but, if its what ya got, its better then the BG's knife. now if he has anything higher in cal then what you have, well you really better hope he isn't a good shot.

personally i would much rather carry a 22 then nothing, but if i had the choice i would carry a 38 or 9mm, some very basic facts are, even a 22 is loud enough to call attention to the fact that a gun has been fired, most times when you will need it outside of your home will be in a populated environment, like a city where you have come from some show or dinner, shopping whatever, point being, a gun shot much less several will draw attention, and police. and a 22 pistol is plenty loud enough to do that.

and lets face it, any situation where you needed a gun is going to go down in very few ways, surprised and unable to do anything but grapple with your attacker hopefully drawing your gun and shooting anywhere they are. or you will see it coming and be able to draw your gun and aim. even in one of the shootings that seems to happen all to often anymore, unless your near the shooter you will have time to take cover and draw, and in most of those cases the shooters were wearing body armor of some kind, your 9mm or 38 in my case wont do any more good then a 22 in that situation so your best bet is to still get away.

they make some really nasty 22 ammo these days, at gander mountain of all places i saw pre segmented hollow points will it stop the BG on first or even 3rd shot, probably not, but unless you hit a instantly lethal area with something of higher cal, they wont either, shot is shot, anyone that can shrug off being shot, isn't likely to care about cal.

if your normal but still going to commit a crime being shot or even shot at, will usually be enough to cause you to run, if you can take a hit, your not normal and nothing short of a fatal shot will get the job done.

while i would want more, if its all i had, i would be very happy to have it, cause it has more reach then my fists and more ammo then throwing my knife
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Old November 5, 2012, 07:13 AM   #44
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A.22lr is about 10times better than throwing rocks and sticks!
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Old November 5, 2012, 07:26 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal
I stand on the $15/50 side of the fence as being the better choice for perfect practice. When something is more expensive to use - the added cost of the item makes a person tend to pay attention more to how they use it.
That logic works until you start factoring in other costs....gas prices, range fees, finding time, etc. Then it become a question of "Is it worth it?".....and most new shooters will say "No".

Also, how much will someone improve over the course of 50 rounds? Even the best instructors have a 250-500 round minimum for even basic training. Perfect practice may make perfect, but any practice is better than none. And the affordability of .22lr ammo makes practice more likely.

53rdcard: Well said, sir.
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Old November 5, 2012, 08:06 AM   #46
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Mossad used Beretta 70S & Beretta 71

Fast / fun read

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...mossad-22-lrs/

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Old November 5, 2012, 10:44 AM   #47
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Whether the blog author is a real spook is up for debate.

I for one see the .22lr as a very limited use SD gun, for me a pocket .22lr pistol Incase something keeps me from carrying and using my pocket .380’s is about as far as I’d go.

The popular belief that a .22lr pistol is some type of standalone survival firearm is funny to me and I’d only carry one as a backup to a shotgun or rifle.
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