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Old January 8, 2010, 02:55 AM   #1
Satanic Toaster
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Obrez pistol and paperwork.

I have really been wanting to start the paperwork to make one of my old Mosin-Nagants into an "Obrez" pistol and i'm not sure how to begin.

I have an old Hex reciever Mosin that would be perfect for this to re-create the style used by partisans in the Russian Civil War in 1917.

Could someone help enlighten me about how I would go about all the paperwork, tax stamp, etc.? Thanks in advance.
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Old January 8, 2010, 10:09 AM   #2
M4Sherman
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It is a pistol unless you add a stock as far as the law knows
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Old January 8, 2010, 11:47 AM   #3
Satanic Toaster
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It's starting out as a rifle. That would that make it an SBR, right?

so what paperwork is needed?
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Old January 8, 2010, 02:07 PM   #4
LukeA
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It has to be shoulder-fired to be a rifle. Not shoulder-fired = not a rifle.
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Old January 8, 2010, 02:52 PM   #5
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This conversion would be considered a SBR even without being able to fire it from the shoulder as it is a "Weapon made from a rifle." with a barrel length less than 16 inches in length.

To make one:
  1. Fill out a form 1
  2. Send form 1, supporting documents, and $200.00 to the ATF
  3. Wait
  4. When you receive your form 1 back with the attached tax stamp, start cutting.

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Old January 8, 2010, 06:31 PM   #6
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M4 Sherman and Luke A, Bad info your passing out, Please, if you don't know don't make up some BS
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Old January 8, 2010, 07:12 PM   #7
Satanic Toaster
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thank you for the responses that were useful. I figured it would fall into the SBR cateogory but I didn't know if all I had to do was fill out the form 1 and send the $200.

I figured there was more paperwork than that involved.

also, is the $200 tax a one time thing for this specific weapon?

i.e. $80 rifle + $200 tax stamp = $280 historical firearm for the rest of my life.
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Old January 8, 2010, 07:35 PM   #8
Willie Lowman
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Form 1. Two copies.

Certificate of compliance.

ATF blue fingerprint cards two of them.

passport photos. two...

and two hundred bucks.
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Old January 8, 2010, 10:12 PM   #9
David Hineline
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And the CLEO signoff on the two form 1 copies.
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Old January 9, 2010, 01:51 AM   #10
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Unless it's being done under a trust, than a complete copy of the trust to include an appendix A.( Instead of the CLEO sign off, Fingerprints, and Mug Shot.)

Yes, the $200 for the tax stamp is a one time "make it" tax for the form 1. If you sell, give, or otherwise transfer it there will be another tax($200) involved for a new stamp for the new owner.

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Old January 10, 2010, 02:44 AM   #11
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Question: If it starts out as a bare, stripped receiver and is made into a pistol (i.e. purpose built), is it still considered an SBR?
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Old January 10, 2010, 03:52 AM   #12
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No. Legally, that would be exactly the same as an AR pistol, provided it never had a shoulder stock attached to it.

I think I originally had that scenario in my head and was trying to fit it to the OP's situation.
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Old January 10, 2010, 08:37 AM   #13
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"Question: If it starts out as a bare, stripped receiver and is made into a pistol (i.e. purpose built), is it still considered an SBR?"

No, but ONLY if it had NEVER been assembled as a long-arm to begin with; since that's not likely to happen in this case, that leaves the OP with the option of cutting down an existing rifle. However, you are right that if you start with a brand-new receiver, you can "deem" it to be whatever you want, so if he made an entire new receiver, he would simply be making a new handgun, the same way the "Mare's Leg" lever-action "pistols" are built on Italian-produced Winchester receivers that have never been assembled as rifles ( http://www.jbcustom.com/page79.html )
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Old January 11, 2010, 05:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
"Question: If it starts out as a bare, stripped receiver and is made into a pistol (i.e. purpose built), is it still considered an SBR?"

No, but ONLY if it had NEVER been assembled as a long-arm to begin with; since that's not likely to happen in this case, that leaves the OP with the option of cutting down an existing rifle. However, you are right that if you start with a brand-new receiver, you can "deem" it to be whatever you want, so if he made an entire new receiver, he would simply be making a new handgun, the same way the "Mare's Leg" lever-action "pistols" are built on Italian-produced Winchester receivers that have never been assembled as rifles
OK. Playing devil's advocate here, where would the burden of proof lie if you had a bare receiver and insisted that it had never been a "rifle." ATF would have a hard time proving otherwise, no?
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Old January 11, 2010, 06:57 AM   #15
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Well, since they KNOW the dimensions of any factory-produced M1891 or 91/30, and the markings that they would have borne, I'd say they'd go over it with a fine-toothed comb to see if any metal or markings have been removed, and if there is, then the presumption would be that that you stripped down an existing rifle, and therefore, have an SBR.
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Old January 12, 2010, 06:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Well, since they KNOW the dimensions of any factory-produced M1891 or 91/30, and the markings that they would have borne, I'd say they'd go over it with a fine-toothed comb to see if any metal or markings have been removed, and if there is, then the presumption would be that that you stripped down an existing rifle, and therefore, have an SBR.
If that were the case, the same would apply to an AR 15 receiver that was purpose built to be a pistol, no?
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Old January 12, 2010, 08:15 PM   #17
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"If that were the case, the same would apply to an AR 15 receiver that was purpose built to be a pistol, no?"

But the lower of an AR pistol bears a serial number that can be definitely be PROVEN to have been a rifle OR a pistol when it left the factory; since there is no such thing as a "factory" sawn-off Mosin-Nagant rifle, any M-N receiver bearing original factory markings would HAVE to be a SBR, and not a newly-made M-N pistol.
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Old January 13, 2010, 01:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
SDC:...But the lower of an AR pistol bears a serial number that can be definitely be PROVEN to have been a rifle OR a pistol when it left the factory...
Nope. Not in all cases.

Stripped or partially assembled AR lowers as well as other firearm frames and receivers are not long guns or handguns- they are considered an "Other Firearm" in the eyes of the ATF. Lowers, frames or receivers are not considered long guns until they have had a shoulder stock attached.

I've never had a manufacturer ship me an AR lower and tell me it was a rifle lower or pistol lower.

Quote:
gyvel: OK. Playing devil's advocate here, where would the burden of proof lie if you had a bare receiver and insisted that it had never been a "rifle." ATF would have a hard time proving otherwise, no?
If you can show where and how you obtained a virgin receiver you'll have no problem. In a criminal trial ATF would have the burden of proof. While you might prevail, you would undoubtably run up legal fees far in excess of that $200 tax stamp.
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Old January 13, 2010, 04:51 AM   #19
gyvel
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Quote:
If you can show where and how you obtained a virgin receiver you'll have no problem. In a criminal trial ATF would have the burden of proof. While you might prevail, you would undoubtably run up legal fees far in excess of that $200 tax stamp.
And that, it would seem to me, is the practical aspect of this.
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Old January 14, 2010, 05:33 PM   #20
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Fun guns. I have one, had it since I was 19 or so.




Video
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Old January 14, 2010, 07:17 PM   #21
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Still waiting for a video of you shooting it one-handed.





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Old January 14, 2010, 09:56 PM   #22
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Not going to happen any time soon. If one were to put a thumb behind the cocking knob (required to hold it single-handed), recoil would drive said knob deep into the web of flesh between the thumb and forefinger.

Now, if I can convince someone else to do it with gloves on, I'll videotape it.
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Old November 19, 2012, 06:58 PM   #23
AJAX22
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I made one

Title 1 (non NFA firearm)

You can de-mill (per BATFE spec) a receiver (or two) and then weld it back together to create a virgin receiver.

Then it can be assembled as a pistol.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7VSu_zdXEg

Firing it one handed
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Old November 19, 2012, 08:32 PM   #24
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1. The rule on using a receiver to build either a rifle or a pistol appllies only to new receivers from the factory that have NEVER had a barrel or stock installed. No one is going to buy the idea that a M-N receiver is newly made and was never a rifle.

2. Cutting up a rifle receiver into several pieces, just so it can be "remade" into a pistol might (or might not) be legal, but to me it sounds like trouble looking for a place to happen when the gun (whatever it is) is fired.

3. PTK, I assume that pistol is registered as an SBR. If not, ????

Jim
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Old November 23, 2012, 11:26 PM   #25
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There is a whole "club" of people over on Calguns who have done exactly this. They have cut, then re-welded the receivers to make an Obrez, they have shot them, had a lot of fun with them and if this flies in anti-gun California, I think that legally it will fly anywhere as a regular Title I firearm.

As long as you had proof that this is what you did, wouldn't it be the same as buying a cut receiver Bren and reassembling into a semi-auto Title I firearm? There are several companies that do this.
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