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Old October 21, 2012, 12:26 AM   #1
tgreening
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16" barrel on a pistol. Roll with it. :)

Bear with me. Hypothetical situation.

Let's assume you buy a pistol, pick your poison, but for the sake of this discussion we'll say it's a glock. Now you buy a 16" barrel for it and stuff it into a Roni type system. Would I be correct in my assumption that despite the 16" barrel you saddled it with, you still have created an NFA item by putting a stock and forerip on it?

Whatever the legal standing, if possible could you link to the appropriate documentation.
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Old October 21, 2012, 01:06 PM   #2
Spats McGee
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I don't know the precise answer to your question, but take a look at BATFE Ruling 2011-4, found here: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/
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Old October 21, 2012, 05:28 PM   #3
tgreening
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Thanks for that Spats. Unfortunately, it still doesn't clearly answer my question. At least I'm not confident enough in my understanding of it's verbiage to consider it answered.

I'm a bit confused by their definition of "firearm", and whether their ruling applies to manufactured kits only, or if it covers kits by manufacturers and kits thrown together by Billy Bob Backyard Armorer.

They talk about what is and is not a firearm when it seems to me the proper verbiage would be what does or does not constitute an NFA firearm.

Still confused.... :/
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Old October 21, 2012, 06:23 PM   #4
David Hineline
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A rifle can be made from a pistol, and remain a rifle or return to a pistol.

A pistol can not be made from a rifle.

To be in rifle configuration it must have at least a 16" barrel and be at least 26" overall including the receiver and stock.
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Old October 21, 2012, 07:22 PM   #5
Spats McGee
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Well, tgreening, I wish I could have been more help. Unfortunately, even though I am a lawyer, I am still in the "shallow end of the NFA pool," in terms of my knowledge of relevant law, so I'm reluctant to do anything other than point you to a statute or a ruling.
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Old October 21, 2012, 08:14 PM   #6
rjrivero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreening
Bear with me. Hypothetical situation.

Let's assume you buy a pistol, pick your poison, but for the sake of this discussion we'll say it's a glock. Now you buy a 16" barrel for it and stuff it into a Roni type system. Would I be correct in my assumption that despite the 16" barrel you saddled it with, you still have created an NFA item by putting a stock and forerip on it?

Whatever the legal standing, if possible could you link to the appropriate documentation.
To answer your question directly, your assumption is wrong. Putting a 16" barrel on a pistol and then putting a shoulder stock on it is making a pistol into a rifle and that is perfectly fine. You can then put a foregrip on it as you wish. (As David pointed out, you must have a barrel 16" or longer and an over all length with stock extended of 26" or longer.)

See ATF Ruling 2011-4. You may take a pistol, convert it into a LEGAL RIFLE, and the SWITCH IT BACK to a legal pistol again as you wish.

If you need the legal definitions of SBR's, AOW's etc. It's in chapter two of ATF 5320.8.

FWIW, I'm not a lawyer, but I have read these documents and am quite familiar with them and the NFA "Rules." If you have specific questions, I can help direct you to the correct rule(s).

Regards.

RJ

Last edited by rjrivero; October 21, 2012 at 08:20 PM.
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Old October 22, 2012, 10:06 AM   #7
tgreening
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"Spats" : I hope my response didn't come across as "thanks for nothing", because that's not what I meant. I appreciate your help. Not your fault I still found myself confused.

"RJ": I'm good on NFA. What was confusing me was whether anyone could convert a pistol to a non-nfa rifle and back, or if it had to come in a kit by a manufacturer. That part was a bit unclear to me, and still is based on the way they have it worded, but I have no problem accepting your take on it.

The other confusing bit was how they describe converting a pistol to a 16"+ barreled rifle is not making a "firearm", but converting it to a -16" barreled rifle is.
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Old October 22, 2012, 10:23 AM   #8
Bill DeShivs
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"Firearm" in that context means NFA weapon.
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Old October 22, 2012, 01:57 PM   #9
James K
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That TC ruling really threw egg into the law's and ATF's definitions. Maybe if I read that rule (thanks, rjrivero, for the link) a couple of dozen times I will understand it. Or just go nuts.

It would be nice just to repeal the whole darned law, but that is not going to happen, and if the Democrats win the WH and Congress, we will have a lot of worse laws to contend with.

Jim
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Old October 22, 2012, 03:51 PM   #10
rjrivero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreening
"RJ": I'm good on NFA. What was confusing me was whether anyone could convert a pistol to a non-nfa rifle and back, or if it had to come in a kit by a manufacturer. That part was a bit unclear to me, and still is based on the way they have it worded, but I have no problem accepting your take on it.
Don't take my word on it. Read it, re-read it, take notes on it and read it from your notes, then compare your notes to the actual letter. Do what ever it takes for you to understand the backwards legal-eeze they use in that letter until it makes sense to you, and you understand the ruling of that letter. If you can't understand it, then hire a lawyer to tell you what it means. What ever you do, DO NOT take my word on it. I'm just another keyboard commando for all you know. TRUST, but VERIFY!
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Old October 22, 2012, 05:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgreening
"Spats" : I hope my response didn't come across as "thanks for nothing", because that's not what I meant. I appreciate your help. Not your fault I still found myself confused.
Nah. I didn't & we're good. I've done a couple of NFA trusts, but none of them involved weapons that could be converted like what you're talking about. On that issue (convertible weapons), I'm still working my way through the technicalities. That's a different beast than simply creating trusts for items that you know, definitively, are NFA-regulated items, and always will be.
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Old October 23, 2012, 08:26 AM   #12
tgreening
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"RJ": No worries. It's not something I intend to do, just a question born of curiousity. That's why I'm more than happy to accept your take on it at the moment and to be honest, I'm not sure I could read that enough to make it clear to me. I get that it's ok to switch back and forth without issue as long as you are not creating an NFA item along the way. Where it gets a bit fuzzy for me is HOW you are allowed to do it. They talk about kits by manufacturers and what-not, which makes it sound to me you have to buy an all inclusive kit in order to do it. Blah blah blah.

Probably just me being stubbornly thick headed, but I can say this much. Most people have never had BATF agents standing in front of them ruling on something (not-even-remotely) firearm related, and finding out first hand just how broad a stroke they can paint with. With all the docs and threats of legal action/incarceration that went along with it. Luckily, it wasn't my specific arse that would have been in the sling. I think.
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Old October 24, 2012, 07:49 AM   #13
Skans
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My (simple) understanding is this: You can use a pistol frame/receiver to make a rifle (not sbr). But, you cannot take a rifle receiver and convert it into a pistol. I had a Mac 10 Carbine - the lower frame/receiver was manufactured as a carbine, not a pistol (thus serial # had a "c" in it). You COULD NOT put a pistol upper on it. Now, Mac 10 pistols have carbine kits that you can mount that are completely legal.
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Old November 6, 2012, 07:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
A pistol can not be made from a rifle.
It can, but I wouldn't call it safe
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Old November 6, 2012, 11:18 AM   #15
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It is legal but good luck getting it to function with that barrel. Look up the mech tech. Those will actually work.
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