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Old October 23, 2012, 08:53 PM   #1
johnwilliamson062
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Dealer Stops Stocking Hi-Points...

Was making the rounds in Dayton today and stopped in every gun store I knew of or ran across. In one of the shops I asked why they weren't stocking Hi-points.

Not available?
Warranty problems?
No demand?
No availability?

Nope. They had too many ATFE trace requests for them.
I never heard of a dealer having trouble with the number of ATFE trace requests unless they found something else going on. It would obviously be a red flag for a reviewing agent though. I know they are cheap, but they aren't that much cheaper than the other cheap competitors. Really surprise me as I never heard a dealer talk about their trace numbers before.
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Old October 23, 2012, 08:58 PM   #2
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Hi-Point, the gangsters pistol of choice.

Accurate at distance during a drive-by, Cheap, and disposable
I'm not surprised by the trace issues.
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Old October 23, 2012, 09:32 PM   #3
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Crooks have figured out they will go bang every time they pull the trigger.
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Old October 23, 2012, 09:39 PM   #4
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There have been a number of laws passed against "Saturday Night Specials"
The definition is not necessarily a consistent one; ergo hey get to make the rules as they go along.

In the end. the Feds (and their local imitators) make up their own definitions.

Not saying it's right...but it is reality.
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Old October 23, 2012, 09:42 PM   #5
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Maybe the Hi-Point is the choice of gang bangers because the ZAMAK slide is so heavy the gun automatically leans over to the "gangsta" hold!
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Old October 23, 2012, 09:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
I never heard of a dealer having trouble with the number of ATFE trace requests unless they found something else going on
  1. If a dealer gets more guns traced than other shops, he's likely to end up on the radar with law enforcement. It just takes one shooting for his name to get plastered on the evening news.
  2. The Hi-Point pistols, due to their low cost, are disproportionately traced to crimes.
It's not pretty, but I can understand the math.
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Old October 23, 2012, 10:40 PM   #7
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I cannot register mine in Chicago because it is a gang gun. Too reliable and too cheap I guess.

I keep it in Michigan cause if I was stopped here they would think I am a gang member.
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Old October 24, 2012, 08:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
If a dealer gets more guns traced than other shops, he's likely to end up on the radar with law enforcement. It just takes one shooting for his name to get plastered on the evening news.
The Hi-Point pistols, due to their low cost, are disproportionately traced to crimes.
I suspect the gun shop has issues beyond Hi-Point inquiries that they are worrying about. They are probably on the radar as being a source for gangs and other criminals with the Hi-Points only being one aspect of it.
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Old October 24, 2012, 10:19 AM   #9
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I had to laugh a little. By getting rid of the Hi-Points, it's like making the gun store into a high-rent district or nice suburb. You'll get rid of the riffraff by virtue of having only higher priced guns.

Oh Reginald, did you see who moved in next door?!
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Old October 24, 2012, 10:38 AM   #10
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it could have something to do with this.....
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...kt7ppRkHyAO-IQ
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Old October 24, 2012, 02:36 PM   #11
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It would be very interesting to get the TRUE stats on the number of crimes done specifically with HP's versus all other brands/types of handguns.
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Old October 24, 2012, 03:45 PM   #12
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I'm shocked.

Cheap, gang banger pistols traced by the BATF? Amazing.
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Old October 24, 2012, 04:31 PM   #13
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They seem to have stopped publishing the data awhile back, but here's a general idea:

Quote:
10 most frequently traced guns in 1994

1 Lorcin P25 (3,223)
2 Davis Industries P380 (2,454)
3 Raven Arms MP25 (2,107)
4 Lorcin L25 (1,258)
5 Mossburg 500 (1,015)
6 Phoenix Arms Raven (959)
7 Jennings J22 (929)
8 Ruger P89 (895)
9 Glock 17 (843)
10 Bryco 38 (820)

Source: ATF, May 1995. [pdf file]
The industry has changed in some respects. Lorcin, Davis, Raven, Jennings, and Bryco are no longer around, and Hi-Point is a relative newcomer. However, the criminal MO hasn't changed much. If there's one common factor, it's price.

It's not the fault of Hi-Point or MKS Supply that their guns get used in crimes, but the low cost makes it an unfortunate consequence.
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Old October 24, 2012, 07:23 PM   #14
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low profit margin

employee or owner having to waste time with trace instead of sales

makes good business sense to me to drop it
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Old October 24, 2012, 11:14 PM   #15
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Folks, keep in mind that a gun doesn't have to be used in a crime to get traced. The basic reason a gun is traced by the police is to identify the original owner, and in many cases, the reason this information is needed is that the gun was found abandoned- perhaps left in an apartment when the tenant was evicted, or found in a broken-down car that was towed to the auto pound.

This is perhaps the primary reason why gun trace data is worthless or highly misleading as an ad-hoc crime statistic. It also helps explain why trace data is often packed with cheap brand names; which do you think is more likely to be abandoned in a "no-tell" motel, a $1,800 Les Baer or a $100 Lorcin?
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Old October 25, 2012, 01:01 AM   #16
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HiPoints & Glocks.
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Old October 25, 2012, 04:16 AM   #17
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I like my hi-points...I love my mossbergs tho
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Old October 25, 2012, 08:53 AM   #18
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Very good point Chris.
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Old October 25, 2012, 01:47 PM   #19
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anecdotal evidence creates causation.
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Old October 25, 2012, 03:37 PM   #20
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mine have been great. no problems... except they didn't like steel cased wolf ammo.
i put 5 or 6 thousand rounds through both over the past 7 years or so..... without cleanin' them. not an easy gun to take down. finally cleaned both about a month ago.

i got these WAY before they were "gangsta" guns and promise you they ain't never been leaned over sideways when shot.
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Old October 25, 2012, 04:28 PM   #21
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
anecdotal evidence creates causation.
Could you expand on what anecdotal evidence you are referring to and what result is being linked to it?
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Old October 25, 2012, 05:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Could you expand on what anecdotal evidence you are referring to and what result is being linked to it?
Its just a generic statement valid in many situations.

"Causation by correlation" is a common logical fallacy.

Just because two things are somehow related, happened close to the same time, close to the same location, or otherwise can be linked... does not mean one caused the other.
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Old October 25, 2012, 05:57 PM   #23
johnwilliamson062
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I understand the causation by correlation bit, but not exactly what statement you are referring to.
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Old October 25, 2012, 06:21 PM   #24
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I would have never noticed they quit selling highpoints.
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:11 PM   #25
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My local dealer sells Hi-Points. I saw one on the range it worked every time the guy pulled the trigger. From what I understand they come with a lifetime warranty. Even poor folks need a way to defend themselves. I remember going to a web site where they were putting them through a torture test. Seems they would brake. They would send em back the factory and get a new one.

I watched a video on you tube where the guys really tried to make it go kaboom. It was still shooting at the end of the video.
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Last edited by Eghad; October 25, 2012 at 09:26 PM.
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