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Old September 23, 2012, 07:14 AM   #1
chrisintexas
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Why is 10 mm cartridge not popular?

Why is this cartridge not popular? I see very few posts about pistols with this cartridge?
Are there many drawbacks to using 10mm pistol?
Thanks
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:25 AM   #2
wpsdlrg
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I don't have one....I've never shot one.... so this is all speculation.

I'd say, likely a combination of factors :

Cost - (both the guns that fire it and the ammo)

Availability - (neither the guns or the ammo are common)

Maintenance and longevity - (the 10 mm is a very high pressure round. As such, it can be expected to wear a pistol much faster than less hot loadings)

Shooting dynamics - (the 10mm is HOT, so it kicks - sort of a 44 magnum for the semi-auto world. That, in and of itself, would probably limit it's popularity. There were lots of S&W model 29's sold, after the Dirty Harry movies came out.....but MANY of them ended up being resold VERY shortly thereafter)


Anyway, that's my take on the subject.....for what it's worth.
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:52 AM   #3
Screwball
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The .40 power level is what the FBI decided would make the cartridge optimal for agent use. S&W found they could shorten the case and make it the same length as a 9mm, to use a similar frame, and thus the .40 was born. The point that the .40 is out there is the main reason for the lack of 10mm interest.

As was mentioned, cost is a factor. You will pay more for 10mm than .40, but most factory loads are very similar to .40 performance. Why spend more, and have a longer cartridge (longer grip), which performs about the same? You want better performance, it will cost you with factory ammo.

It is mostly a collectible package, unless you reload, which can bring the 10mm's potential out. I don't reload, but will not sell my S&W 1006. Waiting for the conversion barrel project on S&W Forum to complete so I can shoot .40 and .357 SIG out of the gun, as well.
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:57 AM   #4
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It is a good round, one of my favorites, but it is always going to be a niche round that does specific tasks well, but probably not the best all around choice. 10mm has a small, but loyal following.

For range use and plinking it is too powerful and expensive to shoot. A 9mm or 38 revolver is much cheaper and pleasant to shoot.

For SD or LE purposes any advantages it has over better 9mm, 40, or 45 loads is small. Especially when you consider the recoil and extra muzzle blast. The most common 10mm is a Glock 20 and they are simply too big for many people.

It has the power for close range hunting, but If I were a dedicated handgun hunter a long barreled revolver offers better sights and triggers for more precise aiming. Under the right conditions I'd shoot anything with it that I'd shoot with a magmum revolver though.

In my opinion the 10mm really shines in a Glock 29 or 20 as a smaller, lighter alternative for a hiking/camping/outdoors gun. As a hiker every ounce I can save is a big deal. With the best loads it will beat 357 magnum revolvers in a smaller, lighter package and do it with almost 3X the ammo. And it comes closer to 44 mag loads than most realise. Magnum revolver loads really need long 6-8" barrels to get their advertised power. Most 44 mags from 4" or shorter barrel struggle to push common 240 gr loads to 1000 fps. The best 44 mag loads I can fnd only shoot 240 gr loads to about 1200 fps from short barrels. My G-20 shoots 200 gr bullets to 1300+ fps.

Here is my G-20 next to my 3" S&W 629 for a size comparison.

http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/...ent=001-11.jpg

The Glock is 14 oz lighter and with the best loads comes very close to matching the revolvers power from the 3" barrel. If I were to choose a 44 with a 6" barrel it would easily outpace the 10mm, but I'm not carrying a handgun that big hiking or hunting. If I need a handgun much bigger than these I'll just carry a rifle.
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Old September 23, 2012, 08:00 AM   #5
Rifleman1776
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Like so many calibers out there, the 10mm and .40 did not need to be invented. Marketing new things was the only reason for these two wannabes.
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Old September 23, 2012, 08:08 AM   #6
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Besides the kick, as others noted above, it may be more uncomfortable for many. Go to a gun shop and grip a 9mm and then a 10mm from the same manufacturer. If you have large hands, it's not a problem. "It's like holding the wrong end of a baseball bat" is one comparison heard.
And ammo is $$$.
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Old September 23, 2012, 08:11 AM   #7
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Yep, the .40 having become perhaps the most popular cartridge in law enforcement in a fairly short span of time shows it had no niche to fill in the market...

As originally designed, the 10mm has as much energy at 75 yards as the .45ACP has at the muzzle. It shoots flatter than the .45, and is designed to fit in guns of similar size to the .45.

Reasons it did not take off have already been noted. That said, the cartridge is reasonably popular with hand loaders who like automatics.
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Old September 23, 2012, 08:13 AM   #8
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About the grip... Cartridge overall length is same as .45ACP's.

Glock 20 grip is the same size as the Glock 21 grip.

10mm 1911 grip is a standard 1911 grip size. (I have a 1911 in 10mm.)
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Old September 23, 2012, 08:34 AM   #9
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I have been shooting the 10m since the beginning. I was one of the first IPSC shooters to use it competivly. It is a incredible round and will embarrass the 45acp in power all when the 45acp was considered a powerful auto cartridge. When the 45acp slow bumble bee round wasn't considered enough power, the 10mm was developed. A full power 10mm is better suited for the woods than for two legged threats these days. Now that the 40s&w has become the standard in LE, the 10mm has been elevated to more of a sportsmans round. The development of the 40s&w has also closed some of the power gap between the 10mm and 40s&w. 40s&w has out powered or has equaled the hottest and best 45acp rounds. All for a cheaper price due to its popularity. The 10mm is a longer round and takes up more space. If you are gonna shoot mid power level 10mm for personal protection, you might as well carry a 40s&w and carry more rounds in the magazine. I have hunted and killed a few whitetail deer with loaded down 10mm 180jhp at 1089fps. It was every effective. This is why I carry a 40s&w now. I can buy 180jhp for my 40s&w hotter than what I loaded down and killed deer with in my 10mm and have 3 extra rounds in the magazine. Heck, there are factory 40s&w rounds with 670ftlbs, that's 10mm spec!

All these reasons have made the 10mm much more expensive to shoot. I load most all my 10mm but due to the cheapness of the 40, I don't load my 40s&w and I don't have to scramble to pick up my brass with the 40 like I do with my 10.

Last edited by Mystro; September 23, 2012 at 08:54 AM.
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Old September 23, 2012, 08:40 AM   #10
superfleet
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It is mostly a collectible package, unless you reload, which can bring the 10mm's potential out.

I did that, still hated the recoil so much I gave up. At indoor ranges the blast is brutal. I wouldnt hesitate to use it for hunting except there are loads that are better for that, cheaper in my opinion.
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Old September 23, 2012, 09:00 AM   #11
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The history of the development of the 10mm is really quite fascinating, simply put, it was a design advocated by Jeff Cooper who wanted more ballistic performance than the .45ACP.

His thoughts were taken and run with and the 10mm is actually an improvement on Cooper's ideas.

The FBI considered it but thought it too much to handle for the average FBI agent, who may well be a small person and could not use it effectively due to recoil.

The .40SW is basically a cut down 10mm.

If you were going to go 10mm, I'd recommend the Glock 20, which is a Glock design built specifically around the 10mm.

The ammo cost is high, but if do not reload, you can sell your brass to reloaders and get your round count price down that way.

FWIW.

Cheers.
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Old September 23, 2012, 09:14 AM   #12
testuser
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I think it helps to look at why other handgun cartridges are popular...

The .38 special, .357 mag, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP have all, at one point or another, been adpoted by either law enforcement or the military on a large scale. Even the .380 and .32 were popular European military and police cartridges for many decades.

I can think of only one big exception in the handgun world, the .44 magnum, however, it's my understanding that it didn't not become widely known outside of shooting circles until the Dirty Harry series. You can't understate the power of Hollywood.

Otherwise, Glock supports this round with moderately priced guns that can be found without much trouble.

Oddly enough, the .45 GAP is to the .45 ACP what the .40 S&W is to the 10mm and hasn't taken off.

The 10mm won't go away, though. It offers magnum level ballistics with moderate recoil for it's class and good magazine capacity. The guns can also be easily converted to the popular .40 S&W with just a barrel change.
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Old September 23, 2012, 09:20 AM   #13
Lprmcnit
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10mm

I shoot both a Glock 20 and a Glock 29. I've actually found the recoil from 10mm to be more comfortable than the sharper recoil of 40 S&W when I have shot that. The big problem I've found with 10mm is that is is basically impossible to get lead free frangible ammo which is required to take a course at Thunder Ranch. Also as has has been mentioned the ammo is significantly more expensive than 40 S&W. Though I haven't tried it, I've been told if you get a .40 barrel, you can use 40 S&W in a Glock 20 and have the option of using .40 for practice and 10mm (with the original barrel) if you are in the woods.
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Old September 23, 2012, 09:24 AM   #14
Patrice
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Hhmmm....Several reasons; including...the FBI going from 10mm to 10mm-lite to S&W jumping in w/ their .40s&w round that essentially puts a .40/10mm bullet into a 9mm-sized frame, that is more easily gripped by folks. 10mm pistols are built on a .45acp-sized frame & the grips are pretty thick for the pistols that use double-stack magazines. Also, folks these days are very afraid of so-called "over-penetration." 10mm rounds are certainly capable of deep penetration into a target.

However, having written the above. I have to say that 10mm is probably my favorite pistol round. It seems like it's not unpopular--Glock, Colt, EAA, Kimber, and several other manufacturers have 10mm runs on their production lines. I'm see more manufacturers (major & boutique) coming out with 10mm ammunition.--Patrice
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Old September 23, 2012, 09:32 AM   #15
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its cost for me mostly, that and lack of guns made for it which are not known to break from shooting it. Tanfoglio and glock are the only ones i know of so far. I have heard tha during testing they did not change the recoil springs properly, causing them to bottom out on the stroke thus producing the felt recoil that was reported who knows if its true. Other than that it seems like an ideal round. Superior to the 45 and most everything else within reason.
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Old September 23, 2012, 11:30 AM   #16
ChaseReynolds
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I am not to sure why people aren't fond of the round. I have only shot a few rounds of 10mm but it was very manageable. I look to get a glock 10mm as soon as I can.
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Old September 23, 2012, 12:42 PM   #17
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I love the 10mm. It's a very versatile caliber firing rounds from 130gr to 240gr in a wide range of velocities.

The problem is the size of the round and the power it can be loaded to. To account for those factors gun companies have to engineer a gun that is extremely strong and relatively large. With the migration to smaller and smaller guns in the past few years many simply look past the 10mm offerings.
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Old September 23, 2012, 01:22 PM   #18
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Like the 45 GAP, just does not do anything that others don't do as well or better and in smaller packages.

Doesn't mean its not a good round, just not popular and falling fast.

Sig 357 is in between, a bit of a following and handing on, but pretty narrow target with the 124 and the 357 magnum emulation.

I am intrigued by it just because tis a bit different, but would not buy it because it gave me anything better than the 9mm does.

Maybe a bit better target potential (and we are talking pretty small with as good as 9mm is these days).
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Old September 23, 2012, 01:44 PM   #19
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Maybe a bit better target potential (and we are talking pretty small with as good as 9mm is these days).
I was thinking about buying a 9mm, but the difference between it and a .380 is pretty small nowadays. Right?
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Old September 23, 2012, 01:54 PM   #20
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I think it is a good choice for a woods pistol but I would go with a 460 Rowland. The 10mm is almost as powerful as a .357, so where a .357 would work, a 10mm would work. The .460 makes more sense as you are approaching .41 mag power.
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:20 PM   #21
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The .460 conversions I have seen were Wilsons; are there any affordable Rowland platforms currently offered?

10mm guns can be had at very reasonable prices.

I had considered a .460 Rowland, but I have a 629, and can't see spending the money.
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:23 PM   #22
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You can convert a Glock or an XD or XDM http://shop.460rowland.com/conversion_kits
I think the XD(m) would be sweet.
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Rifleman1776 View Post
Like so many calibers out there, the 10mm and .40 did not need to be invented. Marketing new things was the only reason for these two wannabes.
I've often wondered why superfluous cartridges are denigrated in pistols but practically worshipped in rifles.

I like the .40
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Old September 23, 2012, 03:16 PM   #24
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Jeff Cooper helped invent the 10mm in 1983 for the BrenTen Pistol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto for history

It was thought to be the ultimate in a self defense / hunting pistol cartridge.

I have owned 3 Colt Delta Elites...it is a handful, but performs very well.
I have taken antelope at 100 yards with it. One shot and dead !

Ammo is available but expensive. PROLOAD made the first US ammo for it that matched or exceeded the Norma load. Their 180 Gold Dot was superb and accurate. Unfortunately they are gone.

ANY 1911 firing it must have the proper recoil spring or you will crack frames.
The Glock 20 is very shootable !
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Old September 23, 2012, 04:43 PM   #25
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Like the 45 GAP, just does not do anything that others don't do as well or better and in smaller packages.
I don't know of any other caliber made by most ammo companies that will fire in a semi-auto reliably and put out 900 ft/lbs energy. The 460 and 45 super are great calibers but they're a niche within a niche while most companies make at least 1 10mm offering.
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