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Old October 27, 2012, 10:56 PM   #51
MLeake
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Just out of curiousity, ccwnut, is the risk to one's neck from not having that nth+1 round, or from running a higher risk of failing to seat a magazine, or of having the top round in the magazine under excessive pressure for feed in a given gun, thereby having turned a semi-auto into a single shot?
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Old October 27, 2012, 11:18 PM   #52
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I'm really not sure what you mean by "too bad @15 with one in the pipe." Could you clarify? The one in the pipe has nothing to do with the magazine afaic.
unloaded gun, stick a full magazine into the gun, no chamber. Like 15 round for 92fs/m9/g19, notice how the magazine hangs low? now stick a magazine with 1 round/and no rounds. No hanging. It's the full pressure from the 15th one. Magazine is full to max and has no where to go down.

Also see post #50 as stated in your Beretta 92fs manual.
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Old October 27, 2012, 11:19 PM   #53
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The guns you have are also ok for +P ammo. That does not mean that all guns are ok for +P ammo.
NOT the Elsie Pea, and I have voiced my opinion on the foolishness of using +P in guns not built for it, and especially using +P rounds that are actually non-existent in the SAAMI specifications like 380 ACP.

Now to the +1 topic. As I mentioned in a post back a while. Some manufacturers list the capacity in the specifications as XX+1. It would be reasonable to believe that loading in such manner is perfectly acceptable.

I think that the point has been clearly made on this thread that +1 carry is dependent on the particular make, and model.
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Old October 27, 2012, 11:24 PM   #54
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I agree it would be reasonable to believe the manual.

I still think it prudent to actually function check the gun in the manner of intended carry.

Which is why, for instance, I changed the grips out on a P220 I had bought used. While it could be carried 8+1, the Hogue rubber finger-groove grips that had been put on it by its prior owner extended just enough below the frame that they made it very easy to not seat a magazine. Combine this with 8+1 loading, and the increased pressure against the magazine and spring during loading...

So I changed to Hogue wood grip panels, that didn't extend quite as far down, and the problem was resolved.

I would not have wanted to discover that particular issue while reloading during a defense situation.
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Old October 27, 2012, 11:25 PM   #55
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unloaded gun, stick a full magazine into the gun, no chamber. Like 15 round for 92fs/m9/g19, notice how the magazine hangs low? now stick a magazine with 1 round/and no rounds. No hanging. It's the full pressure from the 15th one. Magazine is full to max and has no where to go down.
This still makes no sense. The magazines in my guns don't "hang" down. When inserted in the magazine well the click into position, held by the magazine release. Are you saying that one less round in the magazine will change the location of the magazine locked in the well by the mag release?
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Old October 27, 2012, 11:27 PM   #56
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Cheapshooter, I think he means that with the magazine topped off, it doesn't float, but is jammed to the stop on the magazine catch due to the higher pressure against the spring, forcing the magazine downward.

Edit: See JohnKSa's analysis that I quoted in post # 50.
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Old October 27, 2012, 11:41 PM   #57
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always.

G27

9+1
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Old October 28, 2012, 12:24 AM   #58
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Just got done with a little experiment using my Glock 20SF. It was mentioned in an earlier post that Glock says NOT to load the gun with a topped off magazine. A statement which I could not find in the owners manual. With a fully loaded magazine, and the slide forward (in battery) the magazine went into the mag well without resistance to a point about 3/16 inch from being fully inserted, and licked by the magazine release catch. A small amount of extra pressure fully seated the magazine. I withdrew the magazine, and removed one round. The magazine again stopped at the same point, and an amount of pressure equal to that of the first time was needed to fully seat the magazine. I removed yet another round, now making it a 13 round magazine with the same result. then 12, 11, and 10 rounds. finally I removed all but ONE round from the magazine and guess what? THE SAME EXACT PRESSURE NEEDED TO SEAT THE MAGAZINE AS WITH A FULLY LOADED MAG!
Kinda makes me think that any concern of excess pressure on the top round of a fully loaded magazine was taken into consideration by the engineers who designed the gun! In that line of thought I ask just how would the dimension between the notch, or slot caught by the magazine release, and the top of a round in the magazine held by the feed lips on the mag change with more cartridges in the magazine. regardless of spring pressure, that dimension should be the same. It obviously is on my Beretta as proven by my experiment.

Getting late, bed time now. Tomorrow I'll try the same thing with my Beretta 92fs. Another gun that in the specifications only listed the magazine capacity, not the gun capacity as XX+1
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Old October 28, 2012, 01:28 AM   #59
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My EDC is a S&W Bodyguard 380 and I always carry a full mag plus 1 in the chamber. On the rare occasion that I carry my SR9C I also carry 10 plus 1 in the hole..

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Old October 28, 2012, 07:31 AM   #60
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unloaded gun, stick a full magazine into the gun, no chamber. Like 15 round for 92fs/m9/g19, notice how the magazine hangs low? now stick a magazine with 1 round/and no rounds. No hanging. It's the full pressure from the 15th one. Magazine is full to max and has no where to go down.
No, I don't see it in either of my Glocks or any of my other guns from 5 manufacturers.

You did not answer my question regarding what you think the damage is, or if you had ever experienced any problems.

I believe you are overly concerned about nothing and making an issue where there is none. Just like others who are afraid of loading to max for whatever reason they come up with.
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:02 AM   #61
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unloaded gun, stick a full magazine into the gun, no chamber. Like 15 round for 92fs/m9/g19, notice how the magazine hangs low? now stick a magazine with 1 round/and no rounds. No hanging. It's the full pressure from the 15th one. Magazine is full to max and has no where to go down
I've never seen that happen in any of my pistols. If my guns are xx+1 according to the manufacturer, that's how I load them. Why not?
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:42 AM   #62
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Hhmmm....With some pistols it's hard to seat a full magazine into the gun (even with an empty chamber) when the slide is closed; with a round in the chamber it's even more difficult (almost impossible) to seat the magazine.

With those pistols into which I've had difficulty seating a completely full magazine (i.e., empty chamber/closed-slide)--it's been difficult to rack the slide to chamber a round.

I've thought it prudent not to carry in a +1 configuration.--Patrice
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Old October 28, 2012, 09:30 AM   #63
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Patrice- which pistols specifically are you referring to?

And how, exactly, does the round seated in the chamber interfere with the magazine?
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Old October 28, 2012, 11:40 AM   #64
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Patrice- which pistols specifically are you referring to?
Exactly! ???
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Old October 28, 2012, 01:33 PM   #65
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+1 here as well, all the time. Every time.
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Old October 28, 2012, 02:33 PM   #66
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Usually no but have on occasion if I thought it prudent. On the other hand my go to gun today is a revolver and try as I might I can't get an extra round in the cylinder.
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Old October 28, 2012, 04:13 PM   #67
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Hhmmm....(1)With some pistols it's hard to seat a full magazine into the gun (even with an empty chamber) when the slide is closed;(2)with a round in the chamber it's even more difficult (almost impossible) to seat the magazine.
1. This may be just a subjective opinion of each person. Like felt recoil. Some complain that a 380 mouse gun had too much recoil, while others, me for an example, don't really get into the "too uncomfortable to shoot a lot" point until I get to a Ruger Super Blackhawk with full power 44 Mag loads, or a T/C Contender with a 10" 45-70 barrel!

2. I don't really see the loaded chamber would make any noticeable difference. Again, what guns are you referring to?

I did my experiment on both my Elsie Pea, and KAHR CM9 this morning. Same results as with the the Glock. About the same amount of force needed to properly seat the magazine full, -1 round, or only one round in it.
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Old October 28, 2012, 04:24 PM   #68
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With my XD45, I load the magazine to capacity, chamber a round, and then holster the pistol.
I feel that 13 rounds of .45+P, and another 13-rounds in my spare magazine, is plenty enough.
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Old October 28, 2012, 06:12 PM   #69
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I know with AR's and aluminum mags it is best to download 2 rounds so they feed more reliably. It more depends on you gun, I have had some 1911's that were finicky with a fully loaded mag inserted.
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Old October 28, 2012, 06:40 PM   #70
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2. I don't really see the loaded chamber would make any noticeable difference. Again, what guns are you referring to?
The original full-capacity (15 round) mags that came with my Glock 20 required a lot of of force to lock them in place when fully loaded and when the slide was forward. I stopped using the that gun (at least with those magazines) loaded to +1 after I noticed that the cutout in the magazine for the magazine release was actually becoming deformed--apparently due to the force exerted against the release.

The Beretta 92/96 manuals recommend against loading to +1, but they also acknowledge that some people are going to do it and do provide a procedure for attaining a +1 loaded status.
Quote:
And how, exactly, does the round seated in the chamber interfere with the magazine?
It's not the seated round in the magazine, it's the fact that the closed slide exerts downward force on the top round in the magazine. The effect is precisely the same whether there is a round in the chamber or not--it's an issue of inserting a fully loaded magazine into a pistol when the slide is already forward.

If the magazine is fully loaded, and it is inserted into a pistol with the slide forward (round chambered or not), the spring is compressed MORE than it would be compressed if the fully loaded magazine were simply lying on a table or resting in a magazine holder.

It's not likely to be an issue in every firearm/magazine because not every firearm/magazine is designed the same. The issue is that if the magazine designer tried to squeeze every last little bit of capacity out of a given sized magazine, the spring may be either at or nearly at its compression limit. If that is the case, the extra compression generated by inserting a fully loaded magazine into a pistol with the slide forward can compress the spring enough to have a negative effect on its service life. That's what Beretta is saying in their recommendation in the 92/96 manuals.

I generally don't worry about this issue at all with single column magazines, or with double-column guns if fully-loaded magazines lock into place with the slide forward with no appreciable extra effort compared to what is encountered with magazines that are 1 round underloaded.
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:30 PM   #71
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The original full-capacity (15 round) mags that came with my Glock 20 required a lot of of force to lock them in place when fully loaded and when the slide was forward.
My G20 I used to test the loading of a full magazine with a closed slide is a Gen 3 SF. As I noted in post 58 it was no harder to fully insert the magazine with a full 15 rounds than with only one round. Maybe there is something different about the Gen 3 pistols magazine catch.


Quote:
It's not the seated round in the magazine, it's the fact that the closed slide exerts downward force on the top round in the magazine. The effect is precisely the same whether there is a round in the chamber or not--it's an issue of inserting a fully loaded magazine into a pistol when the slide is already forward.
That is exactly what I was saying. but in the post it was said that a full mag was hard to fully insert with a closed slide (1), but with a chambered round it was almost impossible!(2)
Quote:
Hhmmm....(1)With some pistols it's hard to seat a full magazine into the gun (even with an empty chamber) when the slide is closed;(2)with a round in the chamber it's even more difficult (almost impossible) to seat the magazine.
Mostly now just interested in what gun this is happening with out of curisoty, because..........

I think all this is getting away from the OP, and the real question asked. I admit I misunderstood at first, thinking this was just another "one in the pipe or not" thread. In reality the OP was asking that if one extra round really made a difference in a SD use of a hi-capacity firearm.
To that point I will say probably not, but my 9+1 S/A XD40 Sub, 6+1 LCP, and 6+1 KAHR CM9 will still be carried full magazine +1.
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Old October 28, 2012, 08:36 PM   #72
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I don't top off.
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Old October 28, 2012, 09:31 PM   #73
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My G20 I used to test the loading of a full magazine with a closed slide is a Gen 3 SF. As I noted in post 58 it was no harder to fully insert the magazine with a full 15 rounds than with only one round. Maybe there is something different about the Gen 3 pistols magazine catch.
I don't think it's a difference in the magazine catch, I think it's a difference in the magazines--probably in the followers or the springs. The problem was primarily with the original magazines that came with the gun (a Gen 2 G20 purchased in the early 1990s) and doesn't seem to be nearly as pronounced with the newer magazines. Those original mags are also very difficult to load to full capacity, even after having been used quite a bit.
Quote:
To that point I will say probably not, but my 9+1 S/A XD40 Sub, 6+1 LCP, and 6+1 KAHR CM9 will still be carried full magazine +1.
I carry a Kahr CW9 and very occasionally a Walther PPK, both with full mags and with one in the chamber. Neither maker/manual recommends against that practice, and neither gun seems to require appreciably more effort to lock a fully loaded mag (as opposed to a mag that's downloaded by one) into the gun with the slide closed.

These kinds of issues seem to be very rare in single-stack guns of reasonable quality. That's not to say that they're common in double-stack guns--just a little more common than in the single-stack guns.
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Old October 28, 2012, 10:05 PM   #74
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Always. I carry either my SR9c or LC9, both of which have a magazine disconnect safety. When I'm at home and not carrying them the magazine comes out.
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Old October 29, 2012, 09:16 AM   #75
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USUALLY, yes. For a while my EDC was a Makarov, and with the "Euro" style mag release I found that a full mag would want to pop out with just the slightest bump of the catch. Without the +1 that was never a problem. So, I guess it depends on the firearm.

Bob
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