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Old October 25, 2012, 03:57 PM   #26
Constantine
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tahunua001...that's great. Still don't understand why you quoted me though.
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:11 PM   #27
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My Dept., issues Glock 22's but allows 23's - 17 and 19's as personal purchase and carry. 26/27's for Dets and off duty if you want and now as of this year allows a 1911 from a named list again for personal purchase AND if you can qualify at 90% of the shooting score twice a year.
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:13 PM   #28
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I once had a co-worker scoff at my idea of using a Colt 1911 Government .45 when he and the rest of the crew were using S&W .38's. I asked him why, and he said, "What if I get pinned down, and need more ammo? We should all be able to throw ammo to each other." I laughed and told him that if he expended his 18 rouinds, and didn't end the fight, I sure as hell wasn't going to throw him my ammo, even if it would fire in his gun, and that if he planned on missing that much, he should carry more ammo, or be prepared for me to end the fight while he stayed behind cover. He never bothered me again about the matter.
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Old October 25, 2012, 09:30 PM   #29
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Around where I live, if you can qualify with it you can carry it. Of course, those departments will not cover your ammo.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:54 PM   #30
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"i never knew that certain guns were meant for police from the beginning, thats pretty interesting. i learn something new every day on this forum."

Normally it's only the largest police forces that will deal directly with a manufacturer for the purchase of firearms.

Most of the time guns are supplied from one of a number of dedicated wholesalers.

When Glock was kicking off in the American market in the 1980s they threw that model into the crapper somewhat in that they had no problems working directly with forces with as few as 20 officers. Don't know if that's still the case or not.
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Old October 25, 2012, 11:02 PM   #31
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Our State Troopers carry th Glock in .45 GAP, a Trooper buddy of mine, while singing the praises of the gun sorta inferred that it was a bit of a political move. Can't imagine that, what with Glock being in Austria and all....

Our city force, which is also rolled in with he campus force, can carry any full sized Glock as a primary, provided thy qualify with it. Not sure about back up guns or off duty pieces.

The Sheriff Dept issues the Glock 17, not sure if they can carr anything different.

Though I had a run in with a Chatham County guy who was carrying a Delta Elite....my eyes literally looked like this
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Old October 25, 2012, 11:22 PM   #32
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It depends on the department. These days, it is uncommon to see a Glock 22 on one LEO (patrol) and a 1911 on another. It happens, but it is not common. Usually the guy with the 1911 has seniority and has been grandfathered in or is a part of SRT. As an aside, I've even seen one old-timer carrying a REVOLVER! He was rather crusty and was ready to go fishing, though.

What I do see are a lot more of are Glocks along side Sigs, Berettas, & S&W's than 1911's. Usually all standard capacity - 15 rounds or more. A lot of departments provide a stipend for gear, including firearm and most of the guys pick the one from the list that provides the highest capacity in 40 and sometimes 9mm.
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Old October 26, 2012, 12:44 AM   #33
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Our DOC carries Glock 22's if we need a sidearm. I belive Glock gave the state a deal when we got the gen 4's.
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Old October 26, 2012, 01:17 AM   #34
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I know this is the semi-auto forum, but do any police agencies allow officers to still carry revolvers?
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Old October 26, 2012, 02:43 AM   #35
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Until a year ago, I was carrying a Beretta 96D while most other officers were carrying Glocks. There are some dinosaurs still with revolvers, but most of them are in plain clothes duties. Still, you will see some S&Ws and very few H&Ks mixed in in the sea of Glocks.
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Old October 26, 2012, 03:13 AM   #36
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Quote:
the Sheriff's dept has the choice of whatever they want, because they have to buy it themselves
The more I think back to it, they were probably in sheriff's uniforms.
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Old October 26, 2012, 12:35 PM   #37
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Glock 18s, LE duty weapons, procurement...

"Procurement" can be a touchy subject.

IMO, Glock's US law enforcement & military sales made great offers or deals with many US police agencies low on funds in the late 1980s/1990s.
This & a decent product(Glock 17s, 21s, 22s, 32s, etc) made Glock a major LE source for duty pistols up until about the mid 2000s.
I read a item about a small town GA police chief who was so impressed with the select-fire Glock 18 9x19mm he armed his entire police force with them.

SIG-Sauer and HK have increased many LE contracts in recent years. The S&W Military and Police series has seen a huge upswing in the last 5/6 years too.
The frame mounted ambi-safety and a ready supply of spare parts/support also increased the M&Ps selection by US law enforcement.

Many gunners say Glocks are the "best" but some gun owners/shooters may not consider other issues like price, safety, training, spare parts/service, weapon retention, weight, etc.
Chiefs, sheriffs, SACs(Special Agents in Charge), etc have several factors to consider when picking a new LE duty pistol.

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Old October 26, 2012, 12:54 PM   #38
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Yep to the above

A lot has to do with hype and little to do with actual performance.

And it really doe not matter, the best gun shot badly is a waste.
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Old October 26, 2012, 10:49 PM   #39
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My dept in order to carry a revolver you have to have been grandfathered
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Old October 27, 2012, 11:54 AM   #40
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I believe that if magazine commonality were real factor the same theory would be more common in the selection of the rifle and we would see more pistol caliber carbines being used.
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Old October 27, 2012, 01:25 PM   #41
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The main reason for mandatory pistol issue has very little to do with magazine compatibility between officers and nearly everything to do with the convenience of the training staff and the department armorers.

The LAPD's North Hollywood shoot out is the only police gun fight I have ever seen or heard of where ammo swapping between injured and combat effective officers MAY have ever occurred. Something that rare is not an intelligent planning consideration given that the personalization of sidearms yields higher qualification scores, more desire to practice, and results in higher accuracy during officer involved shootings—all more important factors by far than some extreme magazine tossing fantasy.

I'd much rather work for a department where the bottom line decision on what to carry to defend one's own life was in the hands of the individual officer, so long as he or she qualifies, and not in the hands of departmental bean counters who think one solution fits everyone in the department for the sake of administrative convenience.
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Old October 27, 2012, 03:08 PM   #42
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This is from my local sheriff's department. They've tightened up a little, but still have a lot of leeway.

Quote:
UNIFORMED DUTY
DUTY AUTO LOADER
• Deputies must have passed the Auto Transition qualification course before they
can carry an autoloader of any type
• The .45 ACP is the only approved cartridge for uniform duty usage
• Deputies who qualified with a 9mm or .40 caliber duty handgun during the 2009
and March 2010 weapons qualifications may continue to qualify with and carry
that specific weapon(s).
• MCSO Approved Weapons - Full sized Glock, H&K, Ruger, Sig Sauer and S&W
• barrel length between 4 inches and 6 inches
• Colt 1911 series (clones by Kimber or Springfield are OK)
o Shooter must pass an additional 1911 qualification course
DUTY REVOLVERS
• Full sized six shot 38 or .357 revolvers made by Colt, Ruger or S&W
• barrel length between 4 inches and 6 inches
• Deputies who qualified with any other caliber duty revolver during the 2009 and
March 2010 weapons qualifications may continue to qualify with and carry that
specific weapon(s).
PLAIN CLOTHES OR OFF DUTY
• Any firearm that is approved for uniformed duty as described above plus:
o Any 5 shot 38 or .357 chambered revolver made by Colt, Ruger or S&W
o Compact or sub-compact autoloader made by Berretta, Colt, Glock,
Ruger, Sig Sauer, S&W or Walther
o Additional calibers: .380, 9mm and .40 cal
BACK-UP HANDGUN (Must augment another weapon)
• Any weapon that is safe and a deputy can show proficiency with
FURTHER SPECIFICATIONS REGARDING HANDGUNS
• All weapons must meet factory trigger pull specifications for a new weapon
• The first Trigger pull must be 5 pounds or more
• All factory safeties must be in working order
• All duty autoloaders must have an inertial firing pin safely block
• Lasers that replace the recoil spring guide in autoloaders are approved
• Tritium sights are approved
• External lights that attach to factory rails are approved
SHOTGUN DUTY
• Mossberg 500/590 - 12 gauge
• Must be equipped with a shoulder stock (Bantam stock OK)
• Barrel length of no less than 18” and an overall length of not less than 26”
• May have shell carrier added to it
PATROL RIFLES
• Ruger Mini-14 (ranch rifle, carbine)
• Colt AR-15 (sporter)
• Colt AR style weapons that meet the 5.56 military specifications and are
approved by the Training Unit Firearms Instructor(s)
• H&K 93
• Sig Sauer 556
• .223 / 5.56 calibers ONLY
• Semi-auto action only
• Factory iron sights must be on all weapons and usable
• If any optical sights are added the rifle must be carried in a hard case. Iron
sights must be available and the deputy must be able to qualify with the Iron
sights
ERT/CCT - SUB-MACHINE GUNS
• H&K MP5 - 9 mm
• Use of silencer approved
ERT - SHOTGUN (SWAT)
• Benelli Super 90 - 12 ga
• Scopes and Bipods approved
SNIPER RIFLE
• .308
• Remington 700, Ruger M77, Savage 1100
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Old October 27, 2012, 10:57 PM   #43
tahunua001
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Quote:
PLAIN CLOTHES OR OFF DUTY
• Any firearm that is approved for uniformed duty as described above plus:
o Any 5 shot 38 or .357 chambered revolver made by Colt, Ruger or S&W
o Compact or sub-compact autoloader made by Berretta, Colt, Glock,
Ruger, Sig Sauer, S&W or Walther
o Additional calibers: .380, 9mm and .40 cal
I find this interesting. I have seen a few different lists that specify what an officer can carry off duty and I have a hard time believing that it's enforced or even mentioned. what I own and trust my life with is my own business and I don't give a damn what my source of employment thinks of it. if I want to carry a CZ, Springfield or FN Herstal made handgun and I have the legal right to do so I will do it regardless of caliber.

it was the same way in the military, on several instances I witnessed people being denied access off of the ship in civilian clothes for violating uniform regulations....in CIVILIAN CLOTHING ON PERSONAL TIME.

I really am curious what would happen if an off duty LEO was caught carrying a non regulation handgun just what the repercussions would be.
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Old October 28, 2012, 04:00 AM   #44
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Well at the very least if the officer got into a gun fight with a non approved weapon where the weapon to be carried was in the dept regulations the dept would not be required or could decide based on violation of regs to not defend the officer in court over the shoot in the possible criminal charge and for sure not in the civil trial and good lord forbid it was a shoot that went bad or had a bad policial outcome. As to the military when you take the oath that includes following orders and if the order say this weapon no other then thats it baby or find another line of work. No excuses allowed.
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Old October 28, 2012, 06:32 AM   #45
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I know of several forces where use of an unapproved off duty weapon is grounds for dismissal.
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Old October 28, 2012, 09:23 AM   #46
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A local PD here requires their officers to carry the same weapon on- and off-duty to remain 'covered'. If the officer is involved in a shooting off-duty, using a non-dept issued firearm, then they are on their own, and the dept. will accept no liability for it.
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Old October 28, 2012, 04:11 PM   #47
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I've passed on my agency's issued pistols since I got started in 1996. Back then they issued the BHP or HK P-7, switched to the HK USP and now the G22/23.

I've carried personally-owned 1911s and the XD/XDM instead. They must be in 40SW or 45ACP for uniformed deputies, plain-clothes like myself can carry 9mm but you provide the weapon and ammo yourself. Every morning I must choose between the XD9 subcompact and the XDm40 compact I stay qualified with. If I go back to a uniformed assignement I'll blow the dust of either my Kimber Tactical Custom II or the XD45 compact. My off-duty/bug is a J-Frame .38 spec.
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Old October 28, 2012, 04:40 PM   #48
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You carry what you are issued here end of.
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Old October 28, 2012, 07:55 PM   #49
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The dept. is going to be held accountable legally and in a civil trial if an officer is involved in a shooting, on duty or off duty. If a cop shoots, you can bet a lawyer is going to try to find a way to prove he acted irresponsibly. The department he works for will have to prove that he was using an approved weapon that he was properly trained to use.

Using an unapproved gun that there is no documentation that you have been properly trained on opens your employer up to lawsuits. Using a gun off duty not approved by your dept is already a huge point proving you are a rogue cop and capable of irresponsible decisions.

Requiring all officers to use the same gun simplifies the training and documentation process tremendously. It is a CYA thing for LE departments.
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Old October 28, 2012, 09:56 PM   #50
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When I started, Officers were carrying everything from Smith .38's-.44 Magnums and an assortment of Colt 1911's. BHP's some Smith autos in 9mm and .45. Then some Barettas started showing up along with Sigs and finally Glocks. We could carry almost anything we wanted.

But, the biggest problem was at qualification time. They had to have, on hand. .38 Special. .357 Magnum. .41 Magnum. .44 Magnum. .45 LC. 9mm....45ACP...10mm.

When you have a small department, it may be managable. When you start pushing 250 and up Officers, its a logistic nightmare to keep up with all the ammo. Have someone on staff that can fix minor problems, check the guns out annually etc.

And, training. Some were cocked and locked, some DAO, some TDA. Safeties that went up, safeties that went down. If push came to shove, it would be difficult to prove that anyone received any specific training on thier weapon platform of choice.

I think all the associated liabilty of weapons as a whole, along with the commonality of ammo were the deciding factors to go to an issue handgun.

Our first (12 years ago) was the Glock 35 for uniforms and, Glock 23 for Detectives and smaller Officers. About a year ago, we went with Glock 22's across the board and traded in the 35's and 23's.

Now, I had to give up a Wilson Master Grade 130 for my first Glock, and, I wasn't particulalry happy about that. Over the last 12-13 years though, I have come to accept that the Glock is really about as good as it gets for a duty gun. Dry, lubed, clean, dirty, cared for, neglected, it just doesn't seem to matter. They just generally work and don't rust or break. The armorers course is a snap and, if anything breaks (rarely) there are bins of parts just waiting that require no fitting.

I'm not really a Glock fan, but, looking at it from a purely practical view, it makes sense to go with a single issue weapon and, the Glock is as good as any.

Our agency is big enough to where we ordered the guns special with our Dept initialls XXPD-0000 as the serial number, so, they did actually produce them for us.
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