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Old October 7, 2012, 02:31 AM   #1
chrisintexas
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Sound suppressors?

Are sound suppressors available legally to public? Thanks
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Old October 7, 2012, 03:18 AM   #2
Denezin
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Yes i dunno all the paperwork but i do know a class 3 dealer can supply them after paperwork is cleared and the 200$ tax stamp is paid for. There will be more posts from others that may clarify it better as i dont know much about the process.
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Old October 7, 2012, 04:29 AM   #3
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Moving to NFA Guns & Gear.

It depends on your state's laws. There is a process by which it is possible to garner federal approval to own a suppressor/silencer, but not all states allow ownership, and some that do restrict the use of legally owned suppressors/silencers.
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Old October 8, 2012, 08:38 PM   #4
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In most states yes.
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Old October 9, 2012, 01:53 PM   #5
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Silencers are legal in all states, but 12 states limit possession and use to the military, police and licensed dealers. The other 38 states regulate to various degrees. For example Texas bans silencers, but registration is an affirmative defense to prosecution, so the BATFE allows them to be sold/made there.

A license (FFL/SOT) or a $200 tax is required to be paid to make or buy/transfer a silencer. For those of us who are not in the business of importing, manufacturing or dealing in firearms, the payment of the $200 tax on each one is the best way to go. The forms are avilable online and the BATFE approves any tax stamp application that is filled out correctly. A silencer can be tranferred tax free to your heirs or to a museum if it is left in your will or a trust is used.

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Old October 9, 2012, 02:11 PM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAnb
Silencers are legal in all states, but 12 states limit possession and use to the military, police and licensed dealers.
That's kind of a strange statement. "Legal" but restricted to military, police and licensed dealers is pretty well defined as ILLEGAL to anyone except maybe lawyers.


NY Law:

§ 265.00 Definitions.
As used in this article and in article four hundred, the following
terms shall mean and include:
1. "Machine-gun" means a weapon of any description, irrespective of
size, by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, from which a number of
shots or bullets may be rapidly or automatically discharged from a
magazine with one continuous pull of the trigger and includes a
sub-machine gun.
2. "Firearm silencer" means any instrument, attachment, weapon or
appliance for causing the firing of any gun, revolver, pistol or other
firearms to be silent, or intended to lessen or muffle the noise of the
firing of any gun, revolver, pistol or other firearms.


§ 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:

(1) Such person commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five of section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or
(2) Such person possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell, firearm silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating a machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use;


While they may be legal for law enforcement (and more recently for manufacture), the EXCEPTION is the legality. In the other words, they're not "legal except for", they're "ILLEGAL except for..."
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Old October 9, 2012, 04:19 PM   #7
RAnb
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Quote:
That's kind of a strange statement. "Legal" but restricted to military, police and licensed dealers is pretty well defined as ILLEGAL to anyone except maybe lawyers.
Not strange at all. State law can prohibit the possession or use of any firearm by anyone in the state, including the police military and licensed dealers. Until recently it was a felony in MN for a licensed dealer to possess a silencer, the police had to get them from out of state. Even now it is illegal for the MN police to use a silencer for anything other than emergency tactical response. This rules out their use in training by the police in MN. Until July 2011 it was a gross misdemeanor for anyone (military and police included) in WA to use a silencer on a firearm.

The requirements for silencer possession and use by the police, military and dealers vary from state to state; but in every state they are now legal for these organizations to possess them.

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Last edited by RAnb; October 9, 2012 at 04:25 PM.
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Old October 9, 2012, 04:56 PM   #8
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The statement is still misleading and backwards.

Silencers are ILLEGAL in New York EXCEPT for specific EXCEPTIONS for police and military.

Being legal by federal law or being legal for a few select parties doesn't make them "legal in the state", by any normal vernacular. It makes the ILLEGAL, with exceptions.
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Old October 9, 2012, 08:18 PM   #9
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www.silencersarelegal.com
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Old October 9, 2012, 10:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
The statement is still misleading and backwards.
I was not being backwards or misleading at all. I clearly explained what i meant by the word legal. Are you saying you misunderstood what the words "limit possession and use to the military, police and licensed dealers" meant? I thought I was being very crystal clear. I do not know how I could have said it better.

Would you also claim that driving your automobile on the public roads in NY is also illegal because you need to obtain authorization of the state in the form of a license? Probably not. So why do that same for silencers? An FFL/SOT is available on demand to any adult legal resident who pays the fee/tax, can set up the bare minimum of a store front and can own a firearm. Other than the wait for approval, it can be much cheaper and easier to obtain an FFL /SOT than it is to obtain a car/driver's license.

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Old October 9, 2012, 10:48 PM   #11
Brian Pfleuger
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You have an interesting opinion of doing business in NY.

NY State will not allow someone to just get an FFL and pay the SOT. It's NOT something just any ordinary person can just do.

Here's a site for locating NFA dealers.... none in NY.

Here, http://www.silencerco.com/?section=E...page=Ownership, SilencerCo, shows that silencers are illegal in NY, and they are.

A "regular" person can not own one under any circumstances.

Would you say cars were legal in NY if you had to register as a manufacturer to own one? Would that make sense to anyone?

Silencers are NOT legal in NY by any ordinary definition or understanding of the law.

The bill that changed the law to allow manufacturer in NY even included this memo:

This bill would include firearm silencers within the current exemption for manufacture and sale of certain firearms which are otherwise prohibited in New York State, where such weapons are manufactured and sold to various state and local police departments. It would also permit New York manufacturers to repair such weapons.

"Otherwise prohibited in NY"

Silencers are NOT legal in NY.
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Old October 11, 2012, 03:15 PM   #12
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yeah they are. There is a bit of paper work a $200.00 one time tax and a long wait but they are legal in most states. Check your state laws to make sure.

Here is my first (and so far only suppressed gun) its a Marlin 1895 SBL (45-70)

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Old October 18, 2012, 03:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
NY State will not allow someone to just get an FFL and pay the SOT. It's NOT something just any ordinary person can just do.
Really? I disagree. How did the people at Urban Armory get their FFL/SOT. I bet they were just ordinary guys who established a business front, and filled out the applications like everyone else.

http://start.cortera.com/company/res.../urban-armory/
Quote:
URBAN ARMORY
533 PROSPECT ST
JAMESTOWN, NY 14701-8023 | view map
www.urban-armory.com
http://www.urban-armory.com/cart/products.php?cat=12

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LA...75&TARGET=VIEW

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$PEN265.02$$@TXPEN0265.02+&LIST=SEA3+&BROWSER=EXPLORER+&TOKEN=25697875+&TARGET=VIEW

Quote:
§ 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:
(1) Such person commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon
in the fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five
of section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or
(2) Such person possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell,
firearm silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating
a machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use; or
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$PEN265.10$$@TXPEN0265.10+&LIST=SEA4+&BROWSER=EXPLORER+&TOKEN=25697875+&TARGET=VIEW

Quote:
7. Any person, other than a wholesale dealer, or gunsmith or dealer in
firearms duly licensed pursuant to section 400.00, lawfully in
possession of a firearm, who disposes of the same without first
notifying in writing the licensing officer in the city of New York and
counties of Nassau and Suffolk and elsewhere in the state the executive
department, division of state police, Albany, is guilty of a class A
misdemeanor.
The link below contains the requirements for obtaining a llicense in NY.
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$PEN400.00$$@TXPEN0400.00+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=EXPLORER+&TOKEN=25697875+&TARGET=VIEW

Quote:
§ 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms.
1. Eligibility. No license shall be issued or renewed pursuant to this
section except by the licensing officer, and then only after
investigation and finding that all statements in a proper application
for a license are true. .....
It is lengthy and has lots of requirements, but it seems that any ordinary person 21 and older that is law abiding and can own a gun can submit an application and expect it to be approved. Or did I miss something?

Ranb
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Old October 18, 2012, 04:07 PM   #14
Brian Pfleuger
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Yes, you did miss something. The difference between the theoretical letter of the law and the political/legal reality in NY State.

Even so, the truth is the opposite of your claim, or at the very least, the opposite of the way your claim would be read in standard context. Suppressors are not "legal in NY". They're illegal, with specific, narrow, difficult to accomplish exceptions.

As I said before, it would not be the normal understanding or implication of the word "legal" if you said "Cars are legal in NY" but left out the fact that you had to be a dealer or manufacturer to own one and nobody else could so much as sit in one, say nothing of drive one.

Candy bars are legal. You can buy one, no questions asked. Cars are legal. You need a license to drive one but ANYONE can own one and the standards for driving are extremely basic, easily accomplished and virtually standardized nationwide. Chainsaws are legal. My 6 year old can own one.

Suppressors are NOT legal, unless you meet the narrow, restrictive, difficult, time-consuming and expensive criteria, and even then NO ONE ELSE can so much as HOLD the suppressor in their hands. No one would consider that "legal".
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Old October 18, 2012, 06:15 PM   #15
RAnb
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So you have nothing to support this claim? We are just supposed to believe what you say with no evidence?
Quote:
NY State will not allow someone to just get an FFL and pay the SOT. It's NOT something just any ordinary person can just do.
You make it sound like it is so hard to get a license or tax stamp, it is not. They are issued on demand to anyone who fills out the applications properly. Or can you show me just one case there a properly executed application was denied?

The standards for owning a silencer are extremely basic, easily accomplished and virtually standardized nationwide. Fill out the federal and any required state applications and it is yours. No physical exam or test is required; driver's do not have it that easy.

Can you tell me more about this "narrow, restrictive, difficult, time-consuming and expensive criteria,...." as it applies to silencers and cars? I have owned eleven automobiles/motorcycles and fifteen silencers in the last 33 years. I have spent far more money and invested far more time in fulfilling the requirements to buy and drive these vehicles than I have the silencers I make. I would like to see actual numbers to support your claims.

Quote:
even then NO ONE ELSE can so much as HOLD the suppressor in their hands.
This claim is complete BS. I challenge you to show me any federal or state law that prohibits merely handling a silencer without the authorization of federal or state authorities.

I am tired of your baseless claims. It is time for you to man up and post links to actual laws instead of just assuming we are stupid enough to believe anything you post here. CAPS are not substitute for real evidence. Your attitude towards guns and gun owners is insulting.

Discouraging firearm ownership on a gun forum is bad form.

Ranb
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Old October 18, 2012, 06:31 PM   #16
Brian Pfleuger
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First off, the point that suppressors are not legal by any normal understanding of the word is absolute fact. There are EXCEPTIONS to the law but they are EXCEPTIONS. You could just as easily say it's legal to kill someone in every state. It is legal to kill someone, the same way suppressors are "legal" in every state, with specific exceptions but not under any normal conditions.

Second, the very law that you quoted:

§ 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:

(1) Such person commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon
in the fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five
of section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or
(2) Such person possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell,
firearm silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating
a machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use;

I live here. I know how they interpret the word "possesses" and "possession". Just like it's illegal for a person without a handgun permit to so much as PICKUP a handgun, and gun shops won't even let you touch one, without a permit. You can't shoot your buddies handgun. You can't even pick it up, legally. It's not even legal for me, with my handgun permit, to shoot your handgun, unless your gun is listed on my permit. It's not even normal to say "Handguns are legal in NY" without qualifying it with "if you get a permit" and handguns are far, far more common, generally accessible to anyone and substantially easy to get in the vast majority of the state.

Suppressors are not different. Without being one of the EXCEPTIONS to the law that makes them ILLEGAL, simply holding one in your hand is illegal. It doesn't much matter if you believe it or not, it's true.

Anyway, I've had quite enough. It's obvious that you have some sort of agenda or incentive to convince people that suppressors are legal in all 50 states. Maybe it's because you've worked closely getting it done and it sounds like more has been accomplished to say it. I have no idea. All I know is that it's clearly not true by any normal understanding of the words nor by my experience or anyone else I've ever met in NY.

Possessing silencers legally in NY is the EXCEPTION to the law. It's inarguable. When something is an exception, the "normal state", the common condition, that which is generally so, is the opposite of the exception. Legality is the exception, suppressors are normally illegal in NY.

I have nothing more to say on the matter.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; October 18, 2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old October 18, 2012, 06:59 PM   #17
RAnb
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Quote:
I live here. I know how they interpret the word "possesses" and "possession". Just like it's illegal for a person without a handgun permit to so much as PICKUP a handgun,.....
I think you are much better off telling the truth instead of just making stuff up.
Quote:
Suppressors are not different. Without being one of the EXCEPTIONS to the law that makes them ILLEGAL, simply holding one in your hand is illegal. It doesn't much matter if you believe it or not, it's true.
Based on what you have had to say in this thread I certainly do not believe anything you have to say on the topic of firearms unless you bring some proof to the table.
Quote:
It's obvious that you have some sort of agenda .....
I obviously do have an agenda, it is to support the right to keep and bear arms. When I was lobbying to ease restrictions on firearm use in WA it made me sick when legislators and gun owners just like you would try to educate me on what the law said or meant even though they have no clue about it themselves. Why are you so against educating yourself on what the law actually says?

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Old October 18, 2012, 09:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
This claim is complete BS. I challenge you to show me any federal or state law that prohibits merely handling a silencer without the authorization of federal or state authorities.
Quoting statute is one thing; how things work in practice is another. I've seen a suppressor confiscated from its owner at a public range because he didn't have a copy of his Form 4 with him. He was able to provide this later, but it still made for a great deal of inconvenience.

Quote:
I am tired of your baseless claims. It is time for you to man up and post links to actual laws instead of just assuming we are stupid enough to believe anything you post here. CAPS are not substitute for real evidence. Your attitude towards guns and gun owners is insulting.
We draw the line at this sort of rhetoric. Rebuttals are find (and encouraged), but attacking the person is not.
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Old October 18, 2012, 10:10 PM   #19
RAnb
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So we do not draw the line at irrational anti-gun claims here? The claim that merely holding a silencer in NY is illegal is a new one on me. It has been a while since I read such foolishness, too bad it had to be here.

What sort of anti-gun rhetoric is acceptable on this forum anyway? Several years ago the Brady Campaign used to claim that silencers were illegal in the entire USA. They are as wrong as Brian Pfleuger.

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Old October 18, 2012, 10:22 PM   #20
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He.sighted YOUR statute!!! And man, just agree to disagree. I can argue that you can OC in north carolina at 18,but what happens in reality is someone calls the cops and you have to explain yourself ect... But I digress. Show some respect guy. These mods work hard on these servers to keep em clean and you gotta be rude? Really? Come on, play nice or go home.
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Old October 18, 2012, 10:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
He.sighted YOUR statute!!!
My statute? Which one was that? I asked for statutes showing that in NY ordinary people can not obtain an FFL/SOT and that it is illegal to merely hold a silencer. He failed to provide anything but his unsubstantiated claims.

Quote:
But I digress. Show some respect guy. These mods work hard on these servers to keep em clean and you gotta be rude? Really? Come on, play nice or go home.
I do not respect a person who makes such irresponsible claims. I asked evidence to support those claims, something I should not have to do. Being truthful is not rude. Who else is going to stand up to his claims? You?

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Old October 18, 2012, 11:18 PM   #22
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The inablilty to posses a suppressor without the propper tax stamp is what makes them illegal in NY. That is how I read it, now it may be how I read but you just have an odd way of wording things in way where you sound rather.defensive, I dont aim to make you the bad guy but when your wrong your wrong. Certain states are stricter than others.

I would believe that holding a suppressor that isnt yours could get you in trouble. Its the principle,possesion is 9/10ths of the law and if you dont have the papers to match what your holding then its illegal. BUT thats my take on it, I tend to err on the safe side. If you want you can show me where in the law it says different, I will admit that I was wrong.

With the proper paperwork you CAN own one, but that is like saying you can own saw your.shotgun barrel to 8inches. Can you? Yes, with the right paperwork, otherwise it is a felony. Getting an SBS legally is the same process, same papers, and same legality, right?

State statute 265.02 its under the (2) for criminal possesion

Last edited by HALL,AUSTIN; October 18, 2012 at 11:31 PM.
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Old October 18, 2012, 11:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
How did the people at Urban Armory get their FFL/SOT. I bet they were just ordinary guys who established a business front, and filled out the applications like everyone else.
Correct. And once they established a business front, they were no longer "ordinary people" in the eyes of the BATF, they were in business. As an FFL holder yourself, you know that the BATF does not allow a person to acquire and hold an FFL (other than a C&R) unless that person is actually in a business that justifies/requires the FFL in question.
Quote:
Several years ago the Brady Campaign used to claim that silencers were illegal in the entire USA.
Sweeping statements made when more specific information is called for can't be true in the general case.

However, it is absolutely true silencers are illegal everywhere in the U.S. unless the owner has jumped through the necessary legal hoops to own one legally. While it is generally possible, in most locations, to accomplish the task (barring interference from state law), it can be complicated, can take a long time and be expensive to complete.

It's actually less misleading to state that silencers are illegal in the U.S. than it is to state that silencers are legal in the U.S. Both statements require additional information to be completely accurate, but most people would be very confused if one were to try to convince them that to buy something that's "legal" they must be background checked, pay a tax/government fee, and then either get permission from a police chief or sheriff or create a trust/corporation before they can take posession of their "legal" item. If you told them that they were subject to arrest if LE finds them with their "legal" item but without the proper paperwork, their skepticism about the legality of said item would likely overflow at that point.

On the other hand, it makes perfect sense to most people if they are told that such items are restricted/illegal unless the owner has fulfilled the special requirements mandated by law to allow possession/purchase.
Quote:
I have spent far more money and invested far more time in fulfilling the requirements to buy and drive these vehicles than I have the silencers I make.
There are no requirements (other than having the money) to buy or own a car. Driving one on the roads is another story.

The analogy is very poor in that sense. One must satisfy legal requirements merely to purchase and own a silencer legally and that makes them very different from cars, or from nearly any other item that most people would normally consider legal to own in the commonly used sense of the word "legal".

The bottom line is that statements like: "Silencers are legal in all states, but 12 states limit possession and use to the military, police and licensed dealers." don't provide very useful information.

A thing is not "legal" in a place where only the military, police and licensed dealers can own them and no stretch of logic or semantics can change that.

I usually go out of my way to avoid locking threads after participating in the discussion, but I'm going to make an exception in this case.
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