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Old October 24, 2012, 10:16 PM   #26
valleyforge.1777
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Sure.

The reason to use a laser sight for handguns, and the reason to use a Red Dot sight (for rifles) is to put the reference for the point of aim onto the same plane as the point of impact.

Let me try to state that in more clear terms: the laser dot sights for handguns accomplish the exact same thing that the red dot sights for rifles accomplish. Plenty of our combat troops use the red dot sights for their M4's, and plenty of our civilian forum members have red dot sights on their AR's, but some of those same people bad mouth the laser dot sights used on handguns. The devices accomplish the same goal, but since one of them (red dot sights on rifles) is battle-tested super cool it is "OK" and the other one (CT lasergrips) is seen as a "crutch" for people who don't know how to use iron sights on their handguns.
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Old October 24, 2012, 11:09 PM   #27
orionengnr
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There are a lot of opinions on lasers, and some feel very strongly.
I can understand some of the naysayers...but I can also see the potential upside.

If you have trained extensively to focus on the front sight, the laser may or may not be very beneficial...or it may be a distraction, causing you to shift your focus.

If, however, as some say, in a real life SD situation, you focus on the threat, then perhaps that red dot is your best friend...

I only own one CT-equipped gun, and i will tell you what I think the CT's biggest advantage is.

From time to time, I take that pistol (3" alloy framed Kimber 1911), double/triple check that it is unloaded, and then look across the room at a small object--a doorknob, light switch, etc. I raise the handgun and point it at the selected object...not raising to eye level, not using iron sights...just simulating point shooting. Then I press the magic button and see where the red dot is relative to my "point".

Usually, the first time or two I am off by a couple inches... but within five reps, I am amazingly "on". If I do this once a month, it takes very little refresher training. If I do it every two weeks...so much the better.

I seldom carry that pistol, but since I do carry a 1911 every day, the training is very transferrable.

I also try to practice a bit of point shooting each range session. Regardless of handgun, I do fairly well, but the more often I do it, the better I am...no surprise here.

Bottom line...I don't need a CT on every handgun. Not to say I wouldn't take them if they were giving them away.

But having one, and using it to best advantage while training...is not a bad thing.

Best regards, Rich

Last edited by orionengnr; October 25, 2012 at 05:36 PM. Reason: belated spell check :)
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Old October 25, 2012, 11:18 AM   #28
CraigJS
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If you are being shot at, short to medium range (say 10-40') you will like it or not be looking at the shooter not your front sight. You will be fixated on the BG, point shooting for the most part. Your motor skills and sight will go away (unless very highly trained and sometimes even then). This ISN'T target shooting with a perfect stance, proper sight picture, and the perfect trigger press. This is SD, and you'll be lucky to speak coherently when it's over. Sights are first choice ALWAYS, but at times are useless. CT batteries don't drain by simply being switched on, only when used. I want as many cards in my hand as possible, CTs to me anyway are Face cards..
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Old October 25, 2012, 12:11 PM   #29
rodeo roy
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eppie

Where I live you would have been in trouble with the law, for threatening Bubba in that way. In the eyes of street justice, good job you did the right thing.

Consider if Bubba really thought lil' Sparky (the dog) was his and came back ready to fight and fired with vengence from just being threated with a gun and really wanting his dog back. Not really conflict advoidance is it. In this case Bubba was just likely a dogknapper that moved on, but what if... . I would never pull a gun on another person till I had already made the choice to try to kill them, and I'm not going there over a 3k dog, that's me but to each his/her own.

As far as the laser sight I bought a Bodyguard .38 w/laser and I should have saved the money and got the one wo/laser. You gotta switch it on from a top button that is not well placed, it don't work well in daylight, and has to be re calibrated after I shoot 10-15 rounds at the range. The sights on the bodyguard are very hard to see. My wife gave me some day-glo green fingernail polish, sight problem solved and I shoot very well with out the laser, up close.

And don't ask what my wife is doing with day-glo green fingernail polish.

Last edited by rodeo roy; October 25, 2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old October 25, 2012, 01:59 PM   #30
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I was trained to never ever give your position away…I hate white light, the illumination rounds or parachute rounds while illuminating everything also illuminated you and hopefully no one but the enemy set off the trip flares. Smoking at night was not allowed, the red glowing coal of a cigarette butt could get your head blown off, and yes the red dot of a laser on the target and on your gun gives your position away and invites incoming rounds.

I have three Crimson Trace Laser grips on a Glock 34 and a Sig 239 and a Smith and Wesson 638 Bodyguard, the Glock has no on/off switch just a pressure button on the back of the grip to activate it, the Sig and the Smith grips have an on/off switch and a pressure button on the front of the grip to activate the laser. As I have over twenty handguns you can see I have not ran out and bought seventeen more laser grips for my other handguns and I do not have laser grips on my carry gun, although I have thought about putting them on my carry gun. In a combat situation and self defense is a combat situation, you are probably going to be gripping the pistol tightly which means the laser is on and projected. In room clearing or whatever, if I were to see a red dot on a door jam or projected on a wall or ceiling or floor or anything before you entered the room, you can bet a magazine of rounds will be coming through the wall where I think you are standing.

Take a pair of laser grips into a dark room with an unloaded gun, you can see the red dot on the target and also on the handgun grip, DO NOT look directly into the laser as it could damage your eyes. The projected red dot does illuminate the target area somewhat but not enough for identification purposes, and since we don’t live in a “free fire zone” and most of us don’t own nightvision, you will then have to illuminate your target with white light for proper target identification before firing. Try this in a dark room with your laser grips and an unloaded pistol and your tactical flashlight, try illuminating the target and putting the red dot of the laser on the target, and then try illuminating the target and putting the iron sights on the target, is there to you that much difference in speed because the white light illuminating your target will also have enough spillover light to allow the use of your iron sights. The flashlight or white light is a bullet magnet, my future investment will probably be in nightvision.

We tried some combat drills one night at an outdoor range shooting around barricades at close targets, blinking our flashlights on and off quickly while firing, and while doing very fast double taps, flashlight on, fire, flashlight off, the illumination from the round going off with that particular ammo was enough to illuminate the target and the sights to further index the sights on that very fast second shot of the double tap.

The poster pointing out about bifocals is well taken, although I can still shoot irons, laser sights and rifle and pistol scopes and red dots are what I am migrating to.

The poster pointing out setting the laser sight red dot just above the front sight on your handgun, makes sense to me, even though you can shoot a red dot laser on target from anywhere your handgun is positioned, practicing using your iron sights with the laser dot, means if something were to go wrong with the laser dot, you are already on target with your iron sights.

When I see most of the military and law enforcement using them, I will put them on all my handguns.
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Last edited by PH/CIB; October 25, 2012 at 02:29 PM.
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Old October 25, 2012, 05:43 PM   #31
orionengnr
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eppie--good job.
Quote:
Where I live you would have been in trouble with the law, for threatening Bubba in that way.
Some of us came to the conclusion that we wanted to live in a Free State, and acted on that wish.
Quote:
I would never pull a gun on another person till I had already made the choice to try to kill them.
Welcome to TFL. No disrespect, but you have some things to learn. Hang around here for a while, and you will learn them.
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Old October 25, 2012, 07:15 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eppie
....Bubba looked at me and he said this was his dog and he was going to take him home. I had my LCP with my Crimson Trace laser in the front pocket of my jeans and my hand was on it. I pointed to his zipper and said " Do you see that red dot by your zipper?" He looked down and while he did so I drew my pistol and aimed right on his family jewels. Then in a calm voice I said "That's were the first bullet is going to go if you don't let go of that dog."...
Dicey situation. You probably got away with that in Texas. In quite a number of other States, you very well might have found yourself answering assault with a deadly weapon, or similar, charges. Folks need to think about alternatives to threatening lethal force to protect property. Carry a cell phone; call the police; take some photos with your cell phone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orionengnr
Quote:
Where I live you would have been in trouble with the law, for threatening Bubba in that way.
Some of us came to the conclusion that we wanted to live in a Free State, and acted on that wish.
Even 'free States" have standards for the justification of using or threatening lethal force. And even in those State, you can go to jail if you threaten or use lethal force in circumstances in which it's not justified. There are no free-fire zones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...I would never pull a gun on another person till I had already made the choice to try to kill them,...
What you may legally do is threaten or use lethal force to stop someone under appropriate circumstances. You may not legally try to kill them, although if you are justified to use lethal force, adequate application of that force might result in the assailant's death.

But there is a clear and legally recognized distinction between an intent to stop and an intent to kill. If you're not clear on this, ask Jerome Ersland.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:26 PM   #33
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First of all I appreciate all of your advice.

Second, I've dealt with bullies many times in my life, and as many of you know once you call their bluff they fold their tent and go home.

Yes, you are right, in a state like New York or California I would probably be incarcerated for protecting my property. Thank God in Texas we have broad castle laws that enable us to protect ourselves and our property.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 25, 2012 at 10:47 PM. Reason: delete bloodlust/chest thumping
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Old October 25, 2012, 11:21 PM   #34
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I would hope in such a circumstance that I'd remember the state regards my dogs as property.

I don't.

Using a gun in a similar situation in my area could be legally dicey. This is where, if I were smaller and older, pepper spray might be wonderfully useful.

At my current age and in my present health, and not having spray, I think I'd probably be legally justified in using basic force to protect property. In my case, basic (unarmed) force is not inconsiderable. I'm not all that big, but I've been involved in various forms of martial arts on a fairly regular basis for nearly 30 years, and on a very regular basis for the last 16.

But I'm happy eppie did not lose his pup.

And I think laws should be changed to once again allow use of whatever force may be required to protect property. Call me inhumane, but I think states have given criminals an expectation that they will be able to go about their business unthwarted by us potential victims.
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Old October 25, 2012, 11:39 PM   #35
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Thank God in Texas we have broad castle laws that enable us to protect ourselves and our property.
Here we go again.

Unfortunately , there must be a lot of people in Texas that think the Texas 'castle law' is a lot broader then what it really is.

Given the scenario you described, if the perp would have kept walking with your dog and you shot him, you would go to jail for murder. Even in TEXAS.

Last edited by shortwave; October 25, 2012 at 11:55 PM.
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Old October 25, 2012, 11:48 PM   #36
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
...And I think laws should be changed to once again allow use of whatever force may be required to protect property...
Actually, the law has never permitted the use of lethal force to protect property. For the last 500 some years, the Common Law rule, upon which our law is based, has limited justified use of lethal force primarily to the protection of human life or defend against attempts to forcibly dispossess one of his property. Blackstone specifically said so in the 18th Century.

From the 1915 abridgment of Blackstone's 18th century Commentaries on the Common Law of England (page 289, emphasis added) --
Quote:
Force may be used in self defense, in which "...if the party himself, or any of these his relations, be forcibly attacked in his person or property, it is lawful for him to repel force by force..." with the caveat that, "...care must be taken that the resistance does not exceed the bounds of mere defense and prevention, for then the defender would himself become an aggressor...

However, note that under what Blackstone refers to as reprisal, once property is taken, it may be recovered or retained only if, "...it be not in a riotous manner, or attended with a breach of the peace....." Blackstone notes, "...the public peace is a superior consideration to any one man's private property ; and as, if individuals were once allowed to use private force as a remedy for private injuries, all social justice must cease, the strong would give law to the weak, and every man would revert to a state of nature; for these reasons it is provided that this natural right of recaption shall never be exerted where such exertion must occasion strife and bodily contention, or endanger the peace of society...
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Old October 26, 2012, 01:20 AM   #37
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Frank, your second quotation is not about defense of property, but about recapture of property after the fact, or about taking vengeance for past wrongs. At least, that is how it reads to me.

Edit: Actually, taken as a whole, BOTH of those quotes seem to constructively refer to society not allowing action after the fact. Blackstone does not say force level itself must be limited, at least not in your quotes; he says only that use of such force must not exceed that required to protect or defend.
End of Edit.


Stopping a crime is not vigilanteism.

Punishing the thief after the fact, is.

Second Edit:

Blackstone also seems to be saying that harming the criminal out of necessity is acceptable, if regrettable; but harming him because he has harmed you, IE out of pique, is not acceptable.

In the case eppie described, the act was in progress, not a fait accompli. His actions were to prevent a theft, and protect his property; he did no harm to the would-be thief after the would-be thief backed off. To me, his actions are in line with your Blackstone quotes.

And again, I have to keep reminding myself that dogs are "property." In both my wife's family and in mine, they are more like family members. While this may not be true in the eyes of the law, it is how many pet owners perceive our pets, and I suspect a higher percentage than "the law" would like to believe would use some level of force to present the taking of, or injury to, a pet.

Third Edit: To the OP, sorry for going so far afield with your thread...

Last edited by MLeake; October 26, 2012 at 01:26 AM.
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Old October 26, 2012, 07:23 AM   #38
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Sure.

The reason to use a laser sight for handguns, and the reason to use a Red Dot sight (for rifles) is to put the reference for the point of aim onto the same plane as the point of impact.

Let me try to state that in more clear terms: the laser dot sights for handguns accomplish the exact same thing that the red dot sights for rifles accomplish. Plenty of our combat troops use the red dot sights for their M4's, and plenty of our civilian forum members have red dot sights on their AR's, but some of those same people bad mouth the laser dot sights used on handguns. The devices accomplish the same goal, but since one of them (red dot sights on rifles) is battle-tested super cool it is "OK" and the other one (CT lasergrips) is seen as a "crutch" for people who don't know how to use iron sights on their handguns.
The big difference is that the red dot on the rifle (or a red dot on a pistol), although visually in the same plane as the target, is in reality only a few inches in front of your eye. It's always there whether it's "on" the target or not. If it's not "on" the target, you can still see where it's at and immiediatly move your barrel until the dot is 'on" the target. That's why you see red dots and not lasers on military weapons, shotguns, open class IPSC pistols, etc.

With the laser on the pistol (or rifle) the dot must physically strike your target to appear. If your point shooting skills are such that the laser dot strikes the target every time you raise your weapon, you have no need for a sight anyway!

In the real world, you'll find that many times your dot will not appear on the target and you must sweep your weapon around until it does. You will not initially know which way to sweep your weapon to get the dot on target and 50% of the time you will go the wrong way, making for a very slow shot.

Indoors it's usually not too bad, you can see the dot on the walls or furniture. Low light outdoor is usually OK also in a cluttered target area. But in any kind of daylight shooting situation, if the dot is not on your target then it's usally not in sight and you're reduced to randomly sweeping the gun until the dot appears on your target or on some background object to give you a reference to where it's at.

All this assumes you're shooting at a nice stationary piece of paper. Try getting the laser dot that you can't see onto a target that's running, swerving, ducking, etc.

Very few people train enough to effectively use one sighting system, much less one for low light conditions (laser) and another for daylight (sights). It just adds another decision point into your OODA loop (observe, orient, decide, and act) and slows you down if you have to make a decision about which sighting system to use.

Last edited by 45_auto; October 26, 2012 at 07:31 AM.
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Old October 26, 2012, 07:58 AM   #39
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I have a Crimson Trace on my primary carry pistol (Springfield XD Subcompact .40) As someone else mentioned, I too have large hands and the shape of it actually helps me grip the pistol more securely. When I practice at the range I primarily use the night sights. I leave my CT on at all times so all I have to do is squeeze the grip and it activates (button is where my middle finger rests on the grip) Since I have no problems aiming without it I see it as a useful aid should I actually need the pistol in a self defense situation. We can't plan for every situation that may arise but its useful to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. If nothing else it may play a role in comfirmation of shot placement in a high stress situation, or give me an "O Snap! There's a red laser in my eyes!" advantage. My only qualm with it is that I'm left handed and the laser rests on the right side of the pistol so IWB is marginally more uncomfortable due to the slight bump but nothing a good holster didn't fix.
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Old October 26, 2012, 08:43 AM   #40
DaleA
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Quote:
-[the red dot] is always there whether it's "on" the target or not.
IMhO a very, very important point.

I've not shot enough with a laser to form a definite opinion on it. Many folk I know with a lot more self defense training than I have like them.

I use the red dot sights a lot and like them. I don't necessarily shoot 'better' with the red dot but it seems 'easier' to shoot about the same with them. And yes, 'old eyes' are starting to play a role in all my sight decisions. But I wouldn't put a red dot on a concealed carry handgun.

For CCW I always imagine the situation would be at very close range and probably happen quickly and sights might actually not be as important as I normally think they are. But when/if it ever happens the situation is going to be what it is and not what I imagine it will be. I'd better be able to roll with the situation and not try to make the situation conform to my preconceived idea of what it 'should' be.

I'm still not sure if I'd want a laser. It would give me an option but I might wind up screwing around with it when I should be concentrating on what's actually happening around me. I guess if I went with one I'd really, really need to practice enough with it so it becomes second nature to use it or not use it and not be frustrated if for some reason it didn't work. That is, I'd have to instantly, with no hesitation go to 'plan B' if the laser didn't come on or if I couldn't find the dot for reasons 45_auto mentioned.
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Old October 26, 2012, 09:46 AM   #41
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I have a Sig C3 1911 CT Edition. It is great. I love the Crimson Trace grips on it. I do think that it would be a plus in almost any self defense situation.

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Old October 26, 2012, 10:28 AM   #42
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For me, the laser comes on when I squeeze the gun. In a well lit room, I can put the laser on target quicker than I can the iron sights of my LCP. In a dimly lit room, the laser is much, much faster. Right now with the overcast outside the laser is still faster than my iron sights on trees in the yard (but not by much). On a sunny day outside, I'd have to see iron sights would be probably be as good or better for me.

Quote:
With the laser on the pistol (or rifle) the dot must physically strike your target to appear. If your point shooting skills are such that the laser dot strikes the target every time you raise your weapon, you have no need for a sight anyway!
I respectfully disagree. I feel like there is a big difference between getting a shot on the paper (hitting a BG in the arm) and putting one center mass.

Quote:
In the real world, you'll find that many times your dot will not appear on the target and you must sweep your weapon around until it does. You will not initially know which way to sweep your weapon to get the dot on target and 50% of the time you will go the wrong way, making for a very slow shot.
True enough in a desert or on the plains. We don't have much of that here on the east coast. Especially in places where violence is more likely, I will almost always be able to see my dot. Of course the iron sights are back-up, but it takes me longer to acquire them anyway than the laser dot anyway.

Curiously enough, I've tried a red dot sight on one of my pistols. I prefer iron to the red dot. However, that pistol has nice big block sights, and they actually point to where the gun shoots -- which is different from my LCP.
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Old October 26, 2012, 12:18 PM   #43
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The difference between a red dot sight, such as my Aimpoints and Ultradot and a laser sight such as my Crimson Trace Laser grips is substantial. Any laser sight projects a laser beam onto the target with a red or green dot aiming point on the target which is necessary for accurate shooting,,,but also lets anyone know who can also see the red dot on the target that you are there. If they can also see the illuminated red dot on the grips of your handgun and your head is immediately behind the handgun, just like a flashlight mounted on a handgun if they fire at the laser or the light, you might lose your marbles.

On a red dot scope or a regular scope with an illuminated reticle, nothing is projected outside of the scope itself and onto the target. I have taken red dot scopes and regular scopes with an illuminated reticle into a darkened room, and making sure the rifle or handgun was unloaded, looked at them from the muzzle end of the handgun or rifle…According to the owner’s manuel this is safe to do and will not harm your eyes as opposed to a laser which will harm your eyes. I can adjust the red dot sight or the illuminated reticle on a regular scope down to the point that I can easily see it through the scope but from the muzzle end of the pistol or the rifle I cannot see it,,,there is no red dot or red glow or red halo to increase your signature or give your position away. That is important to me.

While it is cool to watch videos of professional military or law enforcement teams breaking down doors and clearing rooms with flashlights and lasers all over the place, they are paid professionals doing their jobs, I am a civilian now and I do not have a Kevlar helmet or a bulletproof vest, a radio to call for additional backup or medical services, and three or four buddies or at least one buddy acting as my slack man as backup as I take the point position.

As a civilian it is extremely important to me not only to avoid trouble but also to avoid detection,,,a laser red or green dot bouncing off the walls or ceiling or floor or furniture just does’nt cut it.

And as many low light situations unfortunately require the use of white light for proper target identification, so you don't kill a friendly, once you use the white light or flashlight the use of a laser red dot or irons with the additional light, becomes pretty much equal.
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Old October 26, 2012, 01:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
While it is cool to watch videos of professional military or law enforcement teams breaking down doors and clearing rooms with flashlights and lasers all over the place, they are paid professionals doing their jobs, I am a civilian now and I do not have a Kevlar helmet or a bulletproof vest, a radio to call for additional backup or medical services, and three or four buddies or at least one buddy acting as my slack man as backup as I take the point position.

As a civilian it is extremely important to me not only to avoid trouble but also to avoid detection,,,a laser red or green dot bouncing off the walls or ceiling or floor or furniture just does’nt cut it.
I will be doing none of this with my carry gun, there is only one reason I will pull out my carry gun, if I fully intend to fire it. If there are doors that need breaking down and rooms that need clearing a carry piece would not be a good choice. We have strayed way off from the topic of this thread so I guess I'm done here.
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Old October 26, 2012, 04:29 PM   #45
PH/CIB
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=503083&page=2

The above link shows a ballistic shield with a clear ballistic window, here is where a laser sight really comes into its own, you can look through the ballistic window while keeping your head and body behind the cover of the ballistic shield with only your hand holding the handgun exposed, with iron sights or a red dot or a scope since your head is not behind the handgun they are useless and you have to point shoot in this situation, with a red dot laser you can be on target while allmost totally protected.

Another situation where a red dot laser would shine is where for some reason you cannot get your head behind the handgun to use the iron sights or red dot scope or regular scope lets say you are disabled or injured or in a car accident, if you can see the target instead of point shooting you can now engage the target with the red dot laser.

I point out above that if someone shoots at the red dot laser on your gun or the flashlight on your gun you could suffer a headshot, however using a flashlight on your pistol to identify and illuminate the target while using the red dot laser on your handgun to accurately engage the target means you can keep the handgun away from your head and body saving them from incoming rounds.

I point out in one of my other posts that the red dot of the laser on walls or ceiling or floor or furniture would give your position away, I suppose you could train to not grip the handgun tightly enough for the red dot to engage and project until you are ready to shoot. It would be nice to have a flashlight and red dot laser light where one button controlled both,,, blinking them on and off at the same time.

The red dot laser will help if you have trouble with iron sights due to eye problems and even if you have eagle eyes if the red dot you feel gives you an edge and confidence then by all means use it, in a defensive situation you need confidence in yourself and your abilities and your hardware.

Lastly I have three Crimson Trace Laser grips, they are a solid company and the product is solid, mine work well, were easy to install and sight in and have held zero.

Bottom line you have to weigh the pros and cons yourself, and no matter what anyone thinks including myself, if you are happy with your decision to use red dot laser sights or to not use red dot laser sights, that is all that really matters.
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Last edited by PH/CIB; October 26, 2012 at 04:39 PM.
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Old October 26, 2012, 07:04 PM   #46
valleyforge.1777
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What you don't hear very much at all is "I had them on my carry gun and I took them off and I am happier to NOT have them on my gun." No, you sure as heck don't hear that very much (if ever). Yes, if you have the laser, and if you only train to look for the laser dot and then fire you will probably be slower. Assuming you are not law enforcement, not military but some average guy who lives an average middle class life (go to work, come home, stop for gas, go to the mall or the shopping center, sometimes go out for dinner, walk through parking lots, etc) you will face violence mostly as the result of an opportunistic violent criminal attack. It will be up close and very personal. Iron sights will not be a factor. When I train with my guns, I might have three or four shots off before my eyes are looking for the dot from the laser. At that point, I am moving, feet in motion while finger continues to press trigger to the rear to fire more shots at "bad guy" (target). At that point, my laser gives me some additional info about where the gun is pointing relative to the location of the bad guy. It is tempting to train just to look for the laser dot and fire, but that temptation has to be managed. As Michael Bane says, "I want suspenders, a belt, and duct tape!" No reason not to throw every advantage into the mix if practical for still being able to holster and carry the gun.

As a dedicated and enthusiastic user of the Crimson Trace lasers, I will also say that the coming revolution in mini-red dot sites for carry guns is going to be a game changer. I have tried a few and did not like them but the technology is progressing rapidly and they will likely replace iron sights on carry guns to a large extent, within our lifetimes, probably before the decade is out. They might not replace lasers, but they might make lasers a lot less of an advantage. Time will tell, but one thing that is definitely going down in terms of being considered a resource is iron sights on carry guns. Give it ten years before you proclaim me wrong, because I told you that this will happen gradually over time.

Who would have thought even as recently as 2005 that manufacturers would be selling AR-15's without any sights on them at all (since they know that many users will equip the rifle with a red dot or other optical sight system)?

Last edited by valleyforge.1777; October 26, 2012 at 07:09 PM.
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Old October 26, 2012, 09:31 PM   #47
MLeake
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You may not hear it often, but you do hear it.

I had them on two carry guns (Correction, 3 guns). I now own same or close versions of those same guns, sans lasers (442 and MK9). (Correction, I don't currently have an SP101.)

Gave one to my parents (442), sold one to a friend (PM9), sold one to a co-worker (SP101).

I understand the potential advantages to them; I also know from practicing side by side that in most conditions, I am faster without the laser.
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Old November 11, 2012, 01:24 PM   #48
cpallen
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Laser Sights

The expert (LEO, Military) shooters here, and those able to spend alot of time and money training should take a step back for a moment and recall their early days with firearms.

There is a well-known physiological reaction that I expect will work against me in a real-world defensive situation, and this is the Body Alarm Response. Visual acuity issues and "target fixation" play a major role and we are wise to understand what is surely going to happen. I believe that (specifically) the Crimson Trace laser with automatic activation of the grip switch will be helpful for most of us at that time if it has been used as a training aid.

Realistically, range training helps us operate the weapon competently but does very little to prepare us for the "BAR". The ranges I go to won't even let you draw from a holster and fire. If you are willing and able to shoot in competition and train in an environment where a significant amount of stress can be introduced, then I think a laser aid could become less of a factor.

I have been shooting casually for many years - shot/bought my first handgun in 1975. I have not been hunting or anything since my Boy Scout days, so guns for me are strictly for defensive purposes. When I started thinking about concealed carry, the guy at my LGS convinced me to buy a Ruger LCR with the CT laser grip. At his direction, before even taking it to the range, I broke it in and practiced trigger control with it dry-firing while aiming at a light switch in the family room.

As a result, activating the laser is second nature for me and I shoot the LCR better (more accurately) than I do my SW 65 which I've owned for more than 30 years. Earlier this year I bought a Sig P290 with the Sig Laser and it's also useful - if I remember to reach out with my trigger finger or use my weak hand thumb to turn it on. Executiuon is everything. I doubt that it would be useful in a stressfull situation and am probably just going to take it off. The upside is the 290 carries more rounds and is much easier/faster to reload so I guess it boils down to shooting 5 accurate shots vs maybe 15 not so accurate.

I may step up my training by participating in IPDA in the near future. Not sure what else I can do in my area given my time and budget.

Thanks and the contributors to this forum have also been a great aid for me, and if I ever have to use a firearm to protect my or anyone elses' life my success will be largely due to the guidance received here.
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Old November 11, 2012, 09:08 PM   #49
Hook686
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I have CT on my M&P 340 ... when I practice dry fire. At the range I found that I spent my time trying to locate the little red dot rather than staying focused on the target. Various lighting conditions are not my idea of the best condition for CT. I do like them for dry fire practice.
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Old November 12, 2012, 10:52 AM   #50
WeedWacker
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Location: Body: Clarkston, Washington. Soul: LaCrosse, Wisconsin
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Our local action league did a scenario shoot.

You were supposedly attending the new My Little Pony movie with your kids.

First string: In the middle of a movie a dark figure bursts in through the side door and starts shooting. You start sitting a few rows in and must take into account three no-shoot targets in the row in front of you. Place three rounds center of mass in the darkened target (to simulate dark clothing) while avoiding the no-shoot target partially obscuring the bottom left third of the target and the no shoot behind and right of the bad guy. The three shots seem to not have any effect so you take a safety shot to stop the bad guy for good. You make your way to the left emergency exit and find another shooter, also dressed in black, waiting for people to rush out of the theater. Fire two rounds aiming for the head assuming this shooter is also wearing body armor.

Second string: Start with your hands above your head in a surrender position and with your back to two targets that are partially obscured by no-shoot targets. Turn and fire two shots center of mass in both targets followed by two rounds to the head in both targets. Then head to the alley to the right while performing a mandatory magazine change. Continue moving and fire six rounds center of mass at the target 15 yards down range. Then move to the barricade and fire two shots center of mass while leaning right followed by two shots to the head while leaning left.

All this was done in a darkened range with flashlights and strobes in the background. If you had a tactical light it either was held in the hand or previously attached to the firearm and must be in a holster that accepts such accessories. The light could not be attached after drawing the handgun. Lasers were also permitted if attached.

The guy with the best score and fastest time was a retired LEO and used a LC9 with a laser sight (not sure if it was Lasermax or CT). Having the laser in the dark definitely was an advantage since making out the exact shape of the darkened silhouettes was difficult without a light.
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