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Old July 19, 2016, 06:54 AM   #1
Nathan
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Have we pigeon-holed ourselves as diehard AR lovers??

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...kly+Newsletter

I love this video from the firearms blog.

I really like my AR's, but am I leaving great rifles on the table? The VZ-58 and ACR are really interesting to me.

The ACR addresses some of the AR system's flaws....
- gas piston
- real folding stock
- tool less barrel removal

I wonder how any of these rifles are in terms of triggers. There are great AR triggers out there, but a limiting factor in AR accuracy is the lack of <1 lb trigger pulls.

Now, maybe you can tell me better, but I can do without the bullpups. I struggle to see the utility there other than a super short rifle. They tend to have crap triggers, cramped ergos and challenging optic mounts(or built in optics).

What think you?
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Old July 19, 2016, 07:19 AM   #2
ttarp
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You'll probably offend lots of folks with that bit about a piston(America is so easily offended these days), but really I think the issue is the improvements rifles like the ACR make on the AR simply aren't worth double the pricetag to most folks.

As for bullpups, apparently its an acquired taste, but I view them as simply making more efficient use of space than conventional rifles, i.e. why make a rifle longer than it needs to be?
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Old July 19, 2016, 07:30 AM   #3
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but really I think the issue is the improvements rifles like the ACR make on the AR simply aren't worth double the pricetag to most folks.
This is the answer. In addition, I don't see any significant advantages of gas piston over DI in an AR type rifle. There are tons of examples of DI guns running thousands of rounds in between cleaning. The simplicity and easy to obtain accuracy are beautiful, along with the fact that it is an inexpensive system to engineer. Even if the gas tube fouls, you can replace it for about 10 bucks.

Piston guns have advantages. Those advantages are much more significant in a different weapon platform (think belt fed), and they come at an expense. An expense that I, personally, am not willing to pay when I can assemble a very good rifle with PSA parts for less than $500.00.
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Old July 19, 2016, 08:16 AM   #4
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We are diehard gun lovers, and there's a wide variety of guns out there for us to love.

The AR is a fine gun, I own one that is DI & one that's a piston driven folder.
My go-to rifles are non-AR piston driven .308s

I recently eliminated all 7.62x39 from my collection.



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Old July 19, 2016, 09:30 AM   #5
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You'll probably offend lots of folks with that bit about a piston(America is so easily offended these days), but really I think the issue is the improvements rifles like the ACR make on the AR simply aren't worth double the pricetag to most folks
That and the 1:9 twist barrel is a step backwards from what most 5.56mm carbine buyers are looking for. Also Bushmaster/Remington's long list of broken promises regarding the ACR have soured buyers on this model.

If you are interested in the ACR, you may be better off waiting for the Polish FB Radom MSBS, which is based loosely on the ACR and fixes many of its faults, and will likely cost less as well. FB Radom have claimed they will be bringing this rifle to the US civilian market.


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Old July 19, 2016, 10:34 AM   #6
Nathan
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The way I view gas piston vs di is ....sure, piston is better, but di is fine. I wouldn't upgrade a di gun to a piston or even sell a di gun to get a piston, but it is better. I just keep of it as an intangible....no data could show a piston better, except maybe cleanliness or perhaps more efficient use of bolt size and mass... It seems like di designed guns can have lighter bolt assemblies and recoil springs that are located such that a side folder design is easy to accommodate.

I do hope the Polish figure out the ACR. I hate that Remington owns it now. They seem to be an idea killer.

Really like that VZ58, but 7.62 X 39 is hard to find. Can brass and bullets be found at a good price.
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Old July 19, 2016, 11:38 AM   #7
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I really paid no attention to the Armalite platform for years. Mainly my focus was on First, Second and early Cold war guns.
Then the AWB of 1994 went away and I thought I'd give the AR a try. Well, most all of the WWI and WWII guns are gone now. I still have a Garand or three and a Soviet SKS. Sadly they stay home when I go to the range and the M4gery gets a lot of attention.
Easy shooting, fairly inexpensive and easy to clean.
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Old July 19, 2016, 03:21 PM   #8
Fishbed77
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Really like that VZ58, but 7.62 X 39 is hard to find.
Huh? After 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm has got to be the easiest-to-find intermediate rifle caliber out there.
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Old July 19, 2016, 03:46 PM   #9
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As far as the direct impingement goes, the US Army has tried for sever decades to find a vastly superior piston design in terms of weight, reliability, and cost, and has failed. The H&K 416 did get adopted by the USMC for a specific use, but the USMC has finally adopted the M4 as the standard issue rifle (er, carbine).

As far as triggers go, ultra light weight triggers are a detriment in a hunting or combat rifle, only really useful in accuracy competitions, and even then you'll find more AR based "space guns" with 2 or 3 pound triggers winning High Power matches instead of some custom bolt action with an eight ounce trigger.

Real Folding Stock. Considering the firearm length and size requirements, this one is a non-starter in the US for legal reasons in my opinion. The people who could actually benefit from a folding stock, helicopter pilots needing a survival weapon, have been doing just fine with the M4 for years now, so it's a bit of a non-issue.

Tool less barrel removal. Why? It's not a machine gun where frequent barrel changes would be needed for heat mitigation. If you really want to mitigate heat from rapid fire, a second upper is easily made and not that heavy to carry around.

There are trade offs in EVERY rifle design, and the AR platform is not perfect. But every "weakness" that it has comes with a different advantage. Direct impingement is easier to make more accurate and is lighter. No folding stock means consistent cheek weld with an A1/A2 fixed stock or fixed cheek piece adjustable (Magpul makes one).

If someone wants a different set of compromises, by all means, the AR isn't perfect for everyone. In fact I doubt it is perfect for anyone. But that doesn't stop it from being a good compromise solution for most everyone.

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Old July 19, 2016, 05:33 PM   #10
Nathan
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, 7.62x39mm has got to be the easiest-to-find intermediate rifle caliber out there.
I stand corrected! I did some quick looking...
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Old July 19, 2016, 06:02 PM   #11
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Though I own two AR's and shoot them frequently, nothing gives me more joy than shooting my lever actions, 94 Winchester or my 35 Remington. Also shooting my rifles with the mannlicher stocks are just as much fun. No I do not think that we have pigeoned holed ourselves into AR platforms. Its just that ammo is cheap whether buying or reloading or the novice buyers are just into the tacticool setups, and in reality it is a very easy platform to modify, assemble, and field strip, but I believe what really is attractive is the lack of recoil for the novice shooters.
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Old July 19, 2016, 07:19 PM   #12
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The AR design is a marvel of good engineering and works just fine. That said, I have a strong hankering to let my AR be joined by a SIG MCX, which has a piston and a side folding stock.

Quote:
Real Folding Stock. Considering the firearm length and size requirements, this one is a non-starter in the US for legal reasons in my opinion.
The MCX is doing just fine with its side folder, joining lots of AK versions which have side folders. You can get some that fold to the right, some that fold to the left.

Why do you think there would be legal problems?

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Old July 19, 2016, 08:18 PM   #13
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"The ACR addresses some of the AR system's flaws....
- gas piston
- real folding stock
- tool less barrel removal"

Do these "flaws" create a REAL problem for the majority of users? Not really.
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Old July 19, 2016, 09:46 PM   #14
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Nathan:
As for finding 7.62x39, you must have found 'Gunbot' or 'Ammoseek'.

My first rifle in that chambering was in '08 (age 52) and the ammo has always been widely available, including during the panics.
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Old July 20, 2016, 03:12 AM   #15
Jimro
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The MCX is doing just fine with its side folder, joining lots of AK versions which have side folders. You can get some that fold to the right, some that fold to the left.

Why do you think there would be legal problems?

Bart Noir
This is really just my opinion, I can't prove it either way, but I expect BATFE shenanigans based on how they've redefined standards a bit over the years (including categorizing ammunition as armor piercing even when the caliber was less than .22 such as the 5.45x39 Russian imports).

An AR with a 14.5" barrel with a true folding stock could slide just under the 26" minimum standards and because it could be discharged in that configuration seems like it would be ripe for additional scrutiny. Especially if the forward mag well was ruled a "vertical foregrip device" because some shooters put a support hand there (and there are products to make it easier to grip the mag well).

Like I started with, I think it would be a non-starter because of the BATFE, but that is just my opinion.

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Old July 20, 2016, 08:41 AM   #16
Gunslick
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Google "Filthy 14". Di is the way to go for an ar. Period.
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Old July 20, 2016, 09:09 AM   #17
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When prices of the competition are 2x-3x as much as most AR's....yep, no choice but to be pigeon holed.

Last edited by Targa; July 20, 2016 at 10:00 AM.
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Old July 20, 2016, 09:26 AM   #18
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I recently eliminated all 7.62x39 from my collection.
Just curious as to why?
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Old July 20, 2016, 11:42 AM   #19
SR420
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I recently eliminated all 7.62x39 from my collection.

Quote:
Skans

Just curious as to why?
I had my AK for almost 10 years, it was positioned between my ARs & M14s.

Great pre-ban Norinco that was more accurate than most would think possible, but I just got bored with it. I figured it was best to sell it to someone that would appreciate it more, so I sold it and got a really good price for it. I then sold off the ammo (7k rounds) and most of the mags. Some of the proceeds have been spent on ammo & upgrades for what remains in my collection, the rest has been stashed away for the coming storm.
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