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Old October 24, 2012, 10:51 AM   #26
Edward429451
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I've nothing against the FCD once I popped the silly sizing ring out of it. I do not need to post size my rounds to fit into any chamber of any gun, I reload for myself. To each his own.

Alluding to champions that shoot well and purportedly use the FCD is silly. Did he say that his ammo was crap and the FCD fixed it? He can probably shoot better than you can with any ammo. That he uses a fcd may make you feel warm and fuzzy, but it's certainly not any kind of endorsement of the fcd to being some kind of be all end all to good ammo loading. If there's a different champ that doesn't use a fcd, does that cancel yours out?
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Old October 24, 2012, 11:05 AM   #27
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The post-sizing is all I use the pistol FCD's for. I still crimp with the seating die.

I could solve the same problem by sizing my bullets, and probably do a better job of it, but this is faster. Any cartridge that gets more than just a kiss from the sizing ring goes in the "blasting ammo" bag. I want to make sure my target ammo and my self-defense ammo chambers properly 100%.

So I kind of agree about "solution in search of a problem", and the FCD can screw up your ammo if you need oversize bullets or if the die is out of spec. But it still can be useful, and it's awfully inexpensive.
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Old October 24, 2012, 03:10 PM   #28
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Alluding to champions that shoot well and purportedly use the FCD is silly. Did he say that his ammo was crap and the FCD fixed it? He can probably shoot better than you can with any ammo. That he uses a fcd may make you feel warm and fuzzy, but it's certainly not any kind of endorsement of the fcd to being some kind of be all end all to good ammo loading. If there's a different champ that doesn't use a fcd, does that cancel yours out?
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What in the heck are you replying to and what is the meaning of your reply?
If you would reread my post #25 its meaning is entirely different.

Just where did imply that he used a FCD, I have no idea whether he reloads his match ammo or not but I would surmise he does, use of the FCD, no idea. If you CAREFULLY read my post it states that I wish to ask him what his thoughts are regarding the FCD, nothing less, nothing more.

Regarding his shooting ability being better than mine, I'm positive of that, being as I'm a disables Veteran, 69 years old, suffering from arthritis in my hands and arm joints. Also have a case of polio in my history which now causes a shaking condition way worse than you can imagine.

Thanks much for your ridiculous post regarding my shooting ability with you knowing nothing about me.

Regarding the line:

Quote:
That he uses a fcd may make you feel warm and fuzzy, but it's certainly not any kind of endorsement of the fcd to being some kind of be all end all to good ammo loading.
Why would I feel warm & fuzzy about something I know not if he uses or endorses the FCD at all. Be all, end all, have no idea, I personally see no need for it.

Regarding your last comment:

Quote:
If there's a different champ that doesn't use a fcd, does that cancel yours out?
Different champion? There is only one National Pistol Champion, 10 years in a row. Again does he use a FCD? No idea, but sure going to find out in the future, if I live long enough.

Sir, your reading skills and comprehension sure need some sharpening up.

Did I offend you by bringing up someone that can obviously outshoot you?
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Old October 24, 2012, 03:36 PM   #29
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The pistol Lee FCD is something else, not quite a roll crimp, not quite a taper crimp. I use the ones I have and crimp the heck out of my pistol bullets
.


Opps! I forgot that the Lee pistol FCD is different from their crimp die.

The Lee pistol FCD with a carbide insert is something I don't use.

It never made any sense to reduce the diameter of the pistol bullets that I cast, or purchased, using that carbide die FCD. As long as my ammunition chambers in my pistols, which they do, then my ammunition will go bang.
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Old October 24, 2012, 04:05 PM   #30
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The Lee FCD for hand gun rounds is a marvelous item to completely fix problems that do not exist. This is what my experience has been in my 3 years of attempting to use it.
jcwit is right on here. The FCD does nothing but crimp then that means there is no problem with that round. It means you won't have any chambering problems as long as you have the OAL set right for the gun. That is why I use them, they make a great case gauge. I know some people like to sit and run every round through a case gauge after they are done loading but I would rather gauge them while I'm loading.
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Old October 24, 2012, 04:14 PM   #31
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Then tell me this, How did all those millions/billions of rounds get reloaded for years and years without the FCD? Guess us old folks just didn't know what we were/are doing even tho everything worked just fine.
I didn't see where anybody said that. But I would like to know what makes you the expert to tell everybody that does use one that they don't know what they are doing?
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Old October 24, 2012, 04:38 PM   #32
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I'm the one that said that, fairly obvious.

What makes me the expert? Well read it again, never pretended to be.

At this point the U.S. is still a free nation, if you wish to use a FCD, have at it. If my opinion is that it is a waste of time, I also have that right.

Are you implying that you are in fact the expert?
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Old October 24, 2012, 10:19 PM   #33
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It never made any sense to reduce the diameter of the pistol bullets that I cast, or purchased, using that carbide die FCD
if it doesn't need it, it won't do it. says so in the instructions.

Quote:
Don’t expect the carbide sizer to touch every case. It is a fail safe tool for the occasional bad round that
could ruin your day.
source:http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Pistol4.pdf

so if you are talking about a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, if you think that way i guess. but then you're assuming you somehow have bulged, crumpled or mangled a round before trying to use the FCD.

but if your round ISN'T oversized, bulged, or otherwise mangled (by operator error), than i guess all it does is crimp it...
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Old October 24, 2012, 11:09 PM   #34
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I have no problem using what works for me. That's all that matters. You should do the same. I don't use them for every round, but I do for 45 ACP, and 40 S&W. I cast my own, and I've not had any problem with my bullets being sized down. I just go by what I've seen, and done, along with conversations I've had with people I actually know. There was a time I took the people that get upset seriously enough to ask around. I asked the most knowledgeable man I know. He Said,"you should do what works for you." I use FCD's because I like the results.


Just so y'all know. I loan mine out for new handloaders to use. They like them too. I do this just so I can tell people about it. lol I'm not kidding.
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Old October 24, 2012, 11:43 PM   #35
jcwit
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Regarding the Lee FCD for handgun cartridges.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...&highlight=FCD

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...&highlight=FCD

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...&highlight=FCD

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...&highlight=FCD

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...&highlight=FCD
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Old October 25, 2012, 08:46 AM   #36
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I would check out Cast Boolits site for better info on this issue. Regardless, there are always far more people use use and appreciate the FCD than not, 2/3 use it some/most/always of the time and the minority, 1/3 don't like it and are hyper-sensitive about the issue and express touchy hurt feelings if you dare to disagree with them that Lee Precision should have never manufactured the FCD and no one should have ever used it cause "I've been reloading so much longer than you and I have the only opinion that matters." For some it allows their semi-auto to function perfectly and for others it improves accuracy and for others it allows better results.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:13 AM   #37
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What in the heck are you replying to and what is the meaning of your reply?
If you would reread my post #25 its meaning is entirely different.
Oh ok, my bad. It sounded to me like a subtle endorsement of it based on some champions use of it. I thought you were being a little sarcastic and knew he used a fcd. Sorry.

And no, I don't take offense at others being able to shoot better than me. Heck, I've never said I was any good. Sometimes tone and intent can be hard to discern in mere print where no body language or tone can be seen with the statement.

If someone did use a FCD just because some champ used it, it would be rather laughable, all things considered. Sorry if I read that wrong, I think I'll go have some more coffee now.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:18 AM   #38
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[QUOTE]1/3 don't like it and are hyper-sensitive about the issue and express touchy hurt feelings if you dare to disagree with them that Lee Precision should have never manufactured the FCD and no one should have ever used it cause QUOTE]

Glad I don't fit into this group of 1/3 of the owners? Sure would like to know where these numbers that show 2/3 of the owners are that use/like the FCD come from and not from a poll taken on some forum but from and actual scientific poll. Not sure just how those percentages came up, but I guess we'll accept them as Gospel anyway. Frankly I could care less who uses the FCD or not, only relating my experiences with the using my own cast bullets that are sized to .452, which is the correct size for my handguns. Heck, I even like to reload at times with my Lee Loaders at times so I guess there must be 1/3 of the reloaders out there still liking to reload with Lee Loaders.

Quote:
"I've been reloading so much longer than you and I have the only opinion that matters.
Not sure why the use of that condescending statement was used.

My comment, post #28
Quote:
I personally see no need for it.
My comment, post #32
Quote:
At this point the U.S. is still a free nation, if you wish to use a FCD, have at it. If my opinion is that it is a waste of time, I also have that right.
As far as the length of time I've been reloading, I sure know I'm still learning after 50 years in the hobby, and I sure know what usually works for me, if one does not wish to follow my recommendations, no big deal, as the old saying goes, "Your can lead a horse, or maybe a mule, to water, but you can't make him drink.

Quote:
I would check out Cast Boolits site for better info on this issue.
Hope this isn't implying that Cast Boolits is the know all end all for reloading. Yes I am a member of Cast Boolits and much info is available there some good some not so much.
Take note their membership consists of only 25,367, THR consists of 170,295. This site doesn't even approach that number. So percentage wise it very likely THR just might have a broader knowledge base.
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Old October 25, 2012, 10:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Oh ok, my bad. It sounded to me like a subtle endorsement of it based on some champions use of it. I thought you were being a little sarcastic and knew he used a fcd. Sorry.

And no, I don't take offense at others being able to shoot better than me. Heck, I've never said I was any good. Sometimes tone and intent can be hard to discern in mere print where no body language or tone can be seen with the statement.

If someone did use a FCD just because some champ used it, it would be rather laughable, all things considered. Sorry if I read that wrong, I think I'll go have some more coffee now.
OK! Understood. I too have this problem, one of the problems with the written word, no way to completely understand what the other persons meanings are.

Have a Good One
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Old October 25, 2012, 01:54 PM   #40
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If you would like to read the same arguments being made over and over and over, here's a thread on this subject. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tory+crimp+die
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Old October 25, 2012, 02:50 PM   #41
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Quote:
If you would like to read the same arguments being made over and over and over, here's a thread on this subject.
Ya! I started reading that thread way back in Feb., last year, and finished reading reading it mid Aug., of this year. In fact I even posted on that thread and even did the poll.

BTW a poll of 360 members voting from a membership of 25,369 total membership is hardly a deciding factor.

But then it also seems to be about the right percentages for the U.S. electing a president also.
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Old October 25, 2012, 04:11 PM   #42
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I'm guessing that for 99.99% of pistol reloaders, the resizing ring doesn't do anything to their rounds and only the crimping is being done. The FCD is a placebo.

Otherwise swagging a lead boolit inside a brass case would be a bad thing, both for accuracy and for safety since it is neck tension that holds the bullet in place. It's a fact that brass rebounds when reshaped more than lead does, enough at least to loose a good bit of tension between the brass and your bullet.

I've used the FCD for both .45 ACP and 9mm, and the ring did not touch the brass even with a .357" bullet inserted in a 9mm case. Now I shoot .358" and will not risk the 9mm resizing ring with it.

I suspect some who think the FCD is swagging their bullet but are still getting good results are actually getting the "swag" during bullet seating, not by the FCD. Any bullet swagged by the FCD ring will have a characteristic taper to it, wider at the front and smaller at the back due to the difference in case thickness between the two points.

I'm with jcwit on this one.
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Old October 25, 2012, 04:48 PM   #43
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Greatest invention ever for crappy reloads.
The pistol die is nothing more than a crimp die with a carbide ring to iron out the limps. Knock out the carbide ring and use it as a seperate crimp die from your seating die.
The rifle die crimps a little differently but if your brass is trimmed and sized properly it should provide the proper neck tension to hold the bullet in place making the fcd unnecessary or needed. If your not getting proper neck tension either your doing something wrong or the expander ball on your sizing die is oversized.
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Old October 25, 2012, 04:50 PM   #44
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I'm not going to argue one way or the other for or against using the FCD. I simply put in my own personal experience with the one I have. It, (the carbide ring on the bottom), sized my bullets down. I know this by both measuring them before and after running a few through, as well as measuring the actual pulled bullets from cases which were run into the FCD and those which were simply run into my standard die.

The cases which were run through the FCD were dummy rounds I was using in order to set the thing up in the first place. I used a half dozen or so and after reading the directions it only took a minor tweak to get the actual crimp perfect, however every other case I ran into it was sized by the ring before it ever got close to being crimped.

I ahd planned on using this same die for both my 45 Colt and my 454, but have since given up that plan as my standard dies do a great job. I really only went with the one for my 45 ACP in order to try and get some more consistency out of my loads. Like has been mentioned they aren't overly expensive, and I figured why not see what all the hub bub is about.

For loading jacketed bullets I doubt seriously that I would have ever even noticed it, especially since most of the jacketed I shoot are undersized compared to the lead ones.

Besides everyone who has ever done much with Lee products, has never gotten anything that was out of spec right.......
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Old October 25, 2012, 05:14 PM   #45
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OK Guys. I just now took the time to do some measuring.

Diameter of the carbide ring in MY Lee FCD, measures .470, this was checked at various places around the ring.

Diameter of MY cast bullets, both 190 gr. Lee semi wad cutter and 228 gr Lee round nose sized to .452. Measurement .452 at various points around the bullet.

Checked a random sample of cases for the case thickness near the mouth. These were from various manufactures. Ran from .007 to .011. Most measured .009, with .010 coming in second.

What does this prove? Any case with a thickness over .009 thickness is going to post size a lead bullet using the Lee FCD that I own and using cast bullets that I size to .452. That folks is a fact.

We can argue all we want, but those are the numbers. And I think I still am capable of knowing how to use a mike and calibers as my measuring instruments were used by me when I was a tool & die maker for 20 years.

I should add, overall I like Lee Products, I have issues with their scale, mainly because of the light weight, its hard for me to use. And obviously I do not care for their FCD. But overall they give an astounding good product at an extremely low price. My experience of their customer service is beyond reproach.
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Old October 25, 2012, 05:23 PM   #46
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Wasn't rocket science to me at all. I used a FCD with my lead .45 loads sized to .452

Upon pulling a bullet it was indeed reduced by .001 and i was getting moderate leading in my barrel. Once i seised to use the FCD the leading went away completely. Bullet size is King to reduce barrel leading.

Plus is the bullets still feed flawless in all my .45's without the use of the FCD so no need for it really.
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Old October 25, 2012, 07:15 PM   #47
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I went home yesterday to see how my .45's came out without the FCD. So I ran my seater adjustment way out and begin to bring the die down little by little on a cartridge already pressed down to 1.200". I am loading flat pointed lead bullets, and about the same time as I can see a crimp starting to appear, the bullet is getting pushed down further into the case. This was not because the adjustment was touching the bullet, but rather from the crimping area of the die contacted the sides of the lead bullet.


Next I thought to myself, "maybe my idea of a good crimp is more than it really needs to be." So I began to set the die up to where the cartridge would go up as high as it could without the bullet getting pushed down. Then I set the adjustment to give me a 1.200" OAL once again. I made a new round, and got out my 1911. I locked the slide back and loaded a round into the magazine and inserted it. I pulled back on the slide and let it chamber the round. Next I carefully racked the slide and ejected the cartridge gently on a towel. I measured the OAL, as I was curious if the light crimp would stop the bullet from getting set back further. It measured 1.192". I don't know if that is a big deal but it got me thinking. And I wanted to see what you guys have to say about it. Maybe it's just the type of bullet I'm using. It's a 230 flat point from a Lee 2 cavity mold.
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Old October 25, 2012, 08:35 PM   #48
Edward429451
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Quote:
I'm guessing that for 99.99% of pistol reloaders, the resizing ring doesn't do anything to their rounds and only the crimping is being done. The FCD is a placebo.
I bought a 223 and 44 FCD's. In 44, I use a Lyman M die and .430 home cast boolits. It makes me cringe now remembering the sound that it made while it was destroying my good 44 Mag cartridges, swaging the case and boolit down. I forced myself to do six rounds, to see what all the fuss was about with the infamous FCD. I only measured the outside case diameter before and after, that, and the horrible crunching sound it made told me everything I needed to know.

I also loaded some .429 jacketed 44's to see how the FCD worked with them too. The FCD didn't size them. It took about 5 seconds to pop the sizing ring out of the die. Now I have a good crimp die. I like the crimp, works fine. Perhaps my use of the M die for lead boolits aggravated the sizing problem.

The 223 FCD is a perfectly good crimp die. It doesn't size anything and I have no issues with it.
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Old October 26, 2012, 12:14 PM   #49
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"Then tell me this, How did all those millions/billions of rounds get reloaded for years and years without the FCD? Guess us old folks just didn't know what we were/are doing even tho everything worked just fine."

The 'logic' of that says two things. First, it suggests that if I don't want a specialty tool it's no good for anyone else either. Second is if wasn't available when I started then no advancements in tools have any value. Both points are invalid. With that as a measure there would be no progressive presses or electric case trimmers or case tumblers or digital scales/powder dumpsters or dial indicators or ...., etc.

Lee's FCDs are specialty tools somewhat like Small Base size dies. SB dies didn't exist when I started and I don't need one now but I'm not silly enough to say my lack of need for a SB die applies to everyone else! I have some 50 years of thoughtful reloading experience, some other people my age do too but some have 1 year of experience they've repeated 50 times without learning a thing. At 72 I'm certainly an "old folk" but I love both the rifle and handgun FCDs for what they are good for and I have the knowledge to know the difference.

The biggest "problem" with FCDs (and most other reloading tools some people have trouble with) is the owner's lack of proper adjustment or use; that's really not a failure of the tool, nothing can be made fool proof!

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Old October 26, 2012, 12:21 PM   #50
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Quote:
"Then tell me this, How did all those millions/billions of rounds get reloaded for years and years without the FCD? Guess us old folks just didn't know what we were/are doing even tho everything worked just fine."

The 'logic' of that says two things. First, if I don't need or want a specialty tool it's no good for anyone else either, second is if wasn't available when I started the no advancement in tools have any value. Both points are invalid.

Lee's FCDs are specialty tools somewhat like Small Base size dies. SB dies didn't exist when I started and I don't need one now but I'm not silly enough to say my lack of need for a SB die applies to everyone else! I have some 50 years of thoughtful reloading experience, some people my age have 1 year of experience they've repeated 50 times without learning a thing. At 72 I'm certainly an "old folk" but I love both the rifle and handgun FCDs for what they are good for and I have the knowledge to know the difference.

The biggest "problem" with FCDs (and most other reloading tools some people have trouble with) is the owner's lack of proper adjustment or use; that's really not a failure of the tool, nothing can be made fool proof!
I believe I answered this whole discussion as it pertains to me and my experience and my equipment and my components.

Please reread my post #46 shown below.

Quote:
OK Guys. I just now took the time to do some measuring.

Diameter of the carbide ring in MY Lee FCD, measures .470, this was checked at various places around the ring.

Diameter of MY cast bullets, both 190 gr. Lee semi wad cutter and 228 gr Lee round nose sized to .452. Measurement .452 at various points around the bullet.

Checked a random sample of cases for the case thickness near the mouth. These were from various manufactures. Ran from .007 to .011. Most measured .009, with .010 coming in second.

What does this prove? Any case with a thickness over .009 thickness is going to post size a lead bullet using the Lee FCD that I own and using cast bullets that I size to .452. That folks is a fact.

We can argue all we want, but those are the numbers. And I think I still am capable of knowing how to use a mike and calibers as my measuring instruments were used by me when I was a tool & die maker for 20 years.

I should add, overall I like Lee Products, I have issues with their scale, mainly because of the light weight, its hard for me to use. And obviously I do not care for their FCD. But overall they give an astounding good product at an extremely low price. My experience of their customer service is beyond reproach.
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