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Old March 25, 2009, 11:55 AM   #1
Noz
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Black powder revolvers

I'd like to share with other CAS shooters some practical knowledge that I have picked up over the last several years. All comments are for replica arms and do not pertain to Ruger Old Armys.
If some of the items are useful for you, good.
If you don't agree with me that's certainly your option.

1. Black Powder revolver main springs cannot be successfully lightened. The spring weight gives positive ignition AND holds any cap debris in place on the nipple.

2. All blackpowder revolvers will profit with TRESO nipples on the cylinder.

3. Most TRESO nipples mate nicely with #10 Remingtons. Better than any other combination.

After installing TRESOs, you must regulate your powder charge so that the blowback through the nipple hole will not blow the cap off of the nipple or in extreme overloads blow the hammer back to half cock. There is no penile improvement gained by shooting ultra heavy charges in a black powder revolver. 25 grs in a 44 will give a satisfying boom/clang and in most cases very little cap problems.
The idea of raising the gun and rolling it to the right between shots to remove cap debris will work but is only necessitated by poor loading techniques.

4. Most black powder revolvers will have hammer face/nipple issues. Some revolvers will have to have the hammer face faced off a bit to obtain proper clearance. The hammer should come to within the thickness of a cap from the nipple without striking the nipple. If the hammer strikes the nipple hard enough to deform the face of the hammer or the nose of the nipple then nipple life is drastically reduced.

5. If you notice that the nipples are starting to be "beaten down" then remove enough metal from the hammerface to solve the problem.

6. Mildly deformed nipples can be removed from the cylinder, chucked thread end in the chuck of a cordless drill and the nose of the nipple allowed to turn against a fine file or a stone to bring the shape back to usable. I specified a cordless drill because of the slower turning speed and lesser chance of making a mess by removing too much metal.

7. Popular theories will tell you that chain fires only occur because of ill fitting or missing caps on charged chambers. Not so. (Personal experience) This may be the case on some chain fires but not all. I think more occur from home cast balls with casting flaws in the ball its self. A ball that has a surface flaw will allow flash from a firing chamber to enter and ignite the power charge, causing a chain fire. This can be prevented by using dead soft lead that obdurates on loading to fill the chamber, making sure that all balls are perfectly cast with no surface flaws or placing a felt wad between the ball and the powder. The wad can be lubed/waxed/wax dipped etc or simply used dry. An option also is to place a layer of grease over the face of the ball in the chamber.

8. Colt clones can have the rear sight notch in the hammer enlarged but it seems to me that there is not enough metal to work with to allow large changes in POI. (again personal experience)

9. .451 round balls will work. .457s will work. .454s will work in almost all guns.

10. The idea that you should not load from a flask because of possibility of burning embers remaining in the chambers is a hold over from the true muzzle loaders where you are burning a large amount of powder and using fiber wads or patches and are trying for a quick second shot.
The revolvers will not be cycled that quickly in CAS shooting for the "burning ember" to be a problem. If you are holstering your revolvers and moving to the unloading table to have them checked then going to a loading area to re-charge, any ember, other than nuclear, will have gone out. Use a loading flask.

11. All black powder revolvers do not feel the same in your hand. 1851s have the smallest grips, 1860s are about a quarter of an inch longer and Remingtons are different from all Colts. You must try them to see what fits you before settling on a CAS main match revolver. To make this even more difficult, the two major manufacturers, Pietta and Uberti, make their guns to slightly different measurements.
I cannot shoot Remingtons, I don't like 1851s or 1861s but get along fine with the 1860s.
If you are simply putting together a collection then this is not a problem.
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Old March 25, 2009, 01:16 PM   #2
ClemBert
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Quote:
1. Black Powder revolver main springs cannot be successfully lightened. The spring weight gives positive ignition AND holds any cap debris in place on the nipple.
I thought this review of the 1858 Remington made by Uberti was interesting: Uberti/Remington 1858 New Model Army .44 Revolver

Specifically this part: The hammer draw is stiff due to a heavy (flat) mainspring. The trigger pull was a pleasant surprise, as it broke at about 3.25 pounds with commendable crispness right out of the box. I backed out the mainspring tension screw about a turn, which slightly eased the hammer draw and reduced the trigger pull to 3.0 pounds.

I'm not sure what it all means as I have to wait for my Uberti Remington 1858 to show up in the mail.
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Old March 25, 2009, 02:06 PM   #3
sundance44s
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It is nice to be able to lighten the hammer spring on an 1858 Remington when useing a conversion cylinder ......but with cap and ball I tighten my hammer spring .........a feature the Colts just don`t enjoy .
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Old March 29, 2009, 08:04 PM   #4
Fingers McGee
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Quote:
I'd like to share with other CAS shooters some practical knowledge that I have picked up over the last several years. All comments are for replica arms and do not pertain to Ruger Old Armys.
If some of the items are useful for you, good.
If you don't agree with me that's certainly your option.

1. Black Powder revolver main springs cannot be successfully lightened. The spring weight gives positive ignition AND holds any cap debris in place on the nipple.

2. All blackpowder revolvers will profit with TRESO nipples on the cylinder.

3. Most TRESO nipples mate nicely with #10 Remingtons. Better than any other combination.

After installing TRESOs, you must regulate your powder charge so that the blowback through the nipple hole will not blow the cap off of the nipple or in extreme overloads blow the hammer back to half cock. There is no penile improvement gained by shooting ultra heavy charges in a black powder revolver. 25 grs in a 44 will give a satisfying boom/clang and in most cases very little cap problems.
The idea of raising the gun and rolling it to the right between shots to remove cap debris will work but is only necessitated by poor loading techniques.

4. Most black powder revolvers will have hammer face/nipple issues. Some revolvers will have to have the hammer face faced off a bit to obtain proper clearance. The hammer should come to within the thickness of a cap from the nipple without striking the nipple. If the hammer strikes the nipple hard enough to deform the face of the hammer or the nose of the nipple then nipple life is drastically reduced.

5. If you notice that the nipples are starting to be "beaten down" then remove enough metal from the hammerface to solve the problem.

6. Mildly deformed nipples can be removed from the cylinder, chucked thread end in the chuck of a cordless drill and the nose of the nipple allowed to turn against a fine file or a stone to bring the shape back to usable. I specified a cordless drill because of the slower turning speed and lesser chance of making a mess by removing too much metal.

7. Popular theories will tell you that chain fires only occur because of ill fitting or missing caps on charged chambers. Not so. (Personal experience) This may be the case on some chain fires but not all. I think more occur from home cast balls with casting flaws in the ball its self. A ball that has a surface flaw will allow flash from a firing chamber to enter and ignite the power charge, causing a chain fire. This can be prevented by using dead soft lead that obdurates on loading to fill the chamber, making sure that all balls are perfectly cast with no surface flaws or placing a felt wad between the ball and the powder. The wad can be lubed/waxed/wax dipped etc or simply used dry. An option also is to place a layer of grease over the face of the ball in the chamber.

8. Colt clones can have the rear sight notch in the hammer enlarged but it seems to me that there is not enough metal to work with to allow large changes in POI. (again personal experience)

9. .451 round balls will work. .457s will work. .454s will work in almost all guns.

10. The idea that you should not load from a flask because of possibility of burning embers remaining in the chambers is a hold over from the true muzzle loaders where you are burning a large amount of powder and using fiber wads or patches and are trying for a quick second shot.
The revolvers will not be cycled that quickly in CAS shooting for the "burning ember" to be a problem. If you are holstering your revolvers and moving to the unloading table to have them checked then going to a loading area to re-charge, any ember, other than nuclear, will have gone out. Use a loading flask.

11. All black powder revolvers do not feel the same in your hand. 1851s have the smallest grips, 1860s are about a quarter of an inch longer and Remingtons are different from all Colts. You must try them to see what fits you before settling on a CAS main match revolver. To make this even more difficult, the two major manufacturers, Pietta and Uberti, make their guns to slightly different measurements.
I cannot shoot Remingtons, I don't like 1851s or 1861s but get along fine with the 1860s.
If you are simply putting together a collection then this is not a problem.
You have learned well, my apprentice.

FM
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:34 PM   #5
DrLaw
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There is no penile improvement gained by shooting ultra heavy charges in a black powder revolver.
Uh, never quite heard that term used to describe b-p revolvers workings before. Is this a new word of art? Not going to have to get my older guns that little blue pill, am I?

The Doc is out now.
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Old March 30, 2009, 07:20 AM   #6
simonkenton
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The mainspring on my Pietta 1860 Army broke.
I called Traditions, they sent me a new main spring for free.
It was slightly bigger than the previous spring. It was too powerful, hard to cock, seemed like it struck too hard.
I got out my second-favorite gunsmithing tool, the Makita belt sander.
BE SURE to use a fine-grit belt, 80 or smaller.
I held the spring in my hand, this made sure not to over heat it.
I ground off both edges of the main spring, about 10 percent reduction in metal.
This caused a 10 per cent reduction in power of the spring, it works perfectly now.
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Old March 30, 2009, 08:24 AM   #7
Noz
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DRLaw

The point is that an overly large charge of powder will not enlarge, as they say on TV "that special part" of a man's body. So therefore there is not need to subject your self to it. Most of the CAS shooters I know shoot between 22 and 28 grains in their replica guns.
simonkenton, I recommend vtigunparts.com for all your replica and original gun part needs. They are specialists and will have most everything you will need.
I buy my TRESO nipples from http://www.possibleshop.com/

Last edited by Noz; March 30, 2009 at 08:30 AM.
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Old March 30, 2009, 08:32 AM   #8
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GSMPL Club / Gamers shooting mouse phart loads
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Old March 30, 2009, 09:11 AM   #9
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There is no penile improvement gained by shooting ultra heavy charges in a black powder revolver.
No there isn't but it sure is fun. Hey, if you can't handle it nobody is forcing you.
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Old March 30, 2009, 09:14 AM   #10
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GSMPL Club / Gamers shooting mouse phart loads

ROTFLMAO!
Stuff that chamber full of 777, be a man!
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Old March 30, 2009, 10:08 AM   #11
simonkenton
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I do buy most of my gun parts from VTI, but, I figure if Traditions will send me a spring for free, I will give it a try.
Plus I enjoy gunsmithing these old guns with my carpentry tools.
You should what I can do with a Sawzall and a metal cutting blade.
Or, maybe you shouldn't.

Thanks for that original post, you know a lot more about cap and ball revolvers than I do.
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Old March 30, 2009, 10:26 AM   #12
sundance44s
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Mo Powder ...hold the cream of wheat !
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Old March 30, 2009, 10:29 AM   #13
ClemBert
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Hell, I thought they made those chamber bores deep to hold powder. I didn't realize that some of you like to put part of your breakfast in there.
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Old March 30, 2009, 11:03 AM   #14
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The hammer should come to within the thickness of a cap from the nipple without striking the nipple.
Seems to me if the hammer stops the thickness of a cap away from the nipple, it will likely fail to ignite the cap.
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Old March 30, 2009, 11:07 AM   #15
ClemBert
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Seems to me if the hammer stops the thickness of a cap away from the nipple, it will likely fail to ignite the cap.
I think he is talking about the thickness of the copper alloy jacket. Don't forget that part of the jacket is then filled with the priming agent therefore that stuff will be compressed before it explodes/deflagates.
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Old March 30, 2009, 12:54 PM   #16
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Seems to me if the hammer stops the thickness of a cap away from the nipple, it will likely fail to ignite the cap.
I'm happy with .005 or less. One problem is the nipple holes are not always the same depth in all six chambers. You can take a little material off the nose of the nipple, but then it needs to go in that same hole, pita if you pull all six when cleaning. I have had to spot face the nipple seats on some cylinders. You can use a cleaning regiment of only removing one nipple at a time or not remove them at all. What ever works best for you. Maybe be my luck but it seems Remington clones are always the most work.
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Old March 30, 2009, 03:15 PM   #17
Noz
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Hawg

I like the big booms too but the guns will run a lot smoother with a 25 gr load. Not wimpy by any stretch.
One of our shooters uses a Dragoon and a Walker. 45 grs in each. Squirrels and baby birds fall out of the trees when Chaos Jumbles turns the Walker loose.
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Old March 30, 2009, 03:30 PM   #18
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NOZ, I like the 1860's also. Who do YOU think makes the best one for the Money? Exclude colts, I am talking about Imported ones?

Thanx because I am thinking of getting another one and I have been out of the C/B game for a while with pistols.

Sam

PS Good post I liked it.
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Old March 30, 2009, 05:21 PM   #19
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One of our shooters uses a Dragoon and a Walker. 45 grs in each.
You mean there's another way?
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Old March 30, 2009, 05:43 PM   #20
madcratebuilder
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One of our shooters uses a Dragoon and a Walker. 45 grs in each.
Kinda light aren't they, well Ok for the Dragoon but lots of room left in the Walker.
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Old March 30, 2009, 07:17 PM   #21
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an empty 7.672X39 case makes a good powder measure for a '58 Rem or ROA hunting load. about 32gr 3F, leaving enough room for a felt and a conical slug squeezed down snugly. room for little more powder but it ain't needed to kill a hog.
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Old March 31, 2009, 01:21 AM   #22
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Yer new around these parts ain't cha? :O)

I went to a CAS shoot once ... was asked ifin I wanted ta shoot, thanked um and said no but it looks like fun... the Photographer asked me, "your a shooter ain't ya?" When I asked what he meant he said, "you shoot distance and hunt." I said yeah... and left for the outdoor Pistol house.
I'll agree you learned what you learned in several years a doin' what you did and thank ya for sharin', but I'll shut my mouth there and do like my dear Mom always told me, and had to learn the hard way after many years.

Sometimes WartHog ... and sometimes I kill for meat ... and been shootin' The Holy Black more than a couple decades...
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Old March 31, 2009, 05:11 AM   #23
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I like the big booms too but the guns will run a lot smoother with a 25 gr load.
Mine run pretty smooth and very accurate with 35.

Quote:
Not wimpy by any stretch.
Ummm, yes it is.
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Old March 31, 2009, 07:24 AM   #24
DrLaw
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I'd like to know, if I cut down the barrel of my 1860 to make an 'Avenging Angel' of it, if I can get a penile implant for it and make it 8" again if I decide later to go back. Or will I have to feed it Extenze instead of Black Powder?

The Doc is out now.
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Old March 31, 2009, 10:07 AM   #25
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I've just been informed that JB Weld is the penile implant adhesive of choice for the home penile implant.

Works good:

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