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Old December 4, 2012, 06:05 PM   #26
Seaman
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Agreed.

Remember that South Carolina state trooper who emptied his S&W .357 Magnum into a perp, 5 shots hit center mass ...158 gr HPs, yet after that, the perp fired one shot from a 22 cal NAA mousegun, killing the trooper.

Return fire can be a killer.

Always take hard cover.
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Old December 4, 2012, 09:19 PM   #27
45_auto
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Quote:
Why is everyone in such a hurry to shoot their gun dry?
Who said anything about shooting thei gun dry?

Get someone to charge you from 7 yards (21 feet) or less intending to kill you with a large knife or a baseball bat. It'll take them less than 1.5 seconds to cover the distance (see Tueller drill). How many times would you propose to shoot at them in the hope that they will stop?
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Old December 5, 2012, 02:28 AM   #28
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When I and handguns were quite well acquainted, I practiced to knock down a double tap into a softball size spot at point of aim... For me, I think it was basically getting the second round off as the slide going forward ran the muzzle back towards level that I was both fast and accurate... Seems if I missed that sweet spot it was just a decent fire, reacquire aim and then fire which was obviously not a "double tap" we generally think...

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Old December 5, 2012, 11:07 AM   #29
zombietactics
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"Get someone to charge you from 7 yards (21 feet) or less intending to kill you with a large knife or a baseball bat. It'll take them less than 1.5 seconds to cover the distance (see Tueller drill). How many times would you propose to shoot at them in the hope that they will stop?"
I propose that the solution to such a problem is not simply drawing/shooting fast. That's one point of the Tueller drill which is often overlooked. (I've discussed this with Dennis personally, BTW)

The goal isn't to "win", by shooting him X number of times before he reaches you with the knife. Aside from the extreme unlikelihood that one would be able to draw and shoot quickly enough, that simply means that you get off a couple of good shots before he starts slashing/stabbing away at you in what might be his last minute or so of life.

If someone is running at me with a knife, I'll be running the opposite direction while drawing and shooting. This solves the (more important) problem of not getting hurt, while putting out a lot of hurt in return.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:20 AM   #30
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I find that most people aren't so good at running backwards.

First, most people take mincing, baby steps when in reverse.

Second, pesky obstacles and trip hazards rear their ugly heads.

I find that moving in diagonals off the X works much better. This is an area where training can go a long way to help.

So, for me, a Tueller drill with knife would involve drawing and shooting with one hand, while moving off the line (probably on a 45deg advance to his weak side) and using the free hand to deflect.

Note that if deflecting a knife, the goal in deflecting is to actually deflect the knife hand's arm, about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the forearm. Various techniques can be applied at that point. Going for the knife hand will often as not put your own hand in unfriendly contact with the blade.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:28 AM   #31
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Remember that South Carolina state trooper who emptied his S&W .357 Magnum into a perp, 5 shots hit center mass ...158 gr HPs, yet after that, the perp fired one shot from a 22 cal NAA mousegun, killing the trooper.
It was .357 Magnum 145 grain Silver Tips.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:54 AM   #32
zombietactics
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Quote:
"I find that most people aren't so good at running backwards.

First, most people take mincing, baby steps when in reverse.

Second, pesky obstacles and trip hazards rear their ugly heads.

I find that moving in diagonals off the X works much better. This is an area where training can go a long way to help.

So, for me, a Tueller drill with knife would involve drawing and shooting with one hand, while moving off the line (probably on a 45deg advance to his weak side) and using the free hand to deflect."
Agreed. Pardon my imprecision in the previous post.
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Old December 5, 2012, 12:34 PM   #33
Seaman
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"It was .357 Magnum 145 grain Silver Tips. " [nate45]

Yes, I stand corrected.

Always bothered me that the perp was hit 5 times in the chest by very potent rounds, yet could still return deadly fire. As you know the perp is behind bars.

The tragic incident has, however, had a beneficial effect in that tactics to avoid such a terrible outcome have since been taught, and lives saved.
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Old December 5, 2012, 01:00 PM   #34
DASHZNT
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Originally Posted by fun2shoot View Post
How fast should your string of shots be in between trigger pulls to be combat effective into a bad guy trying to kill you . Take into account newer people not soldiers who would have much more adrenaline during a fatal shooting. Any ideas people ?
The entire magazine or until theyre dead! They tried killing you for christs sake, they failed and get the exact thing in return... its called a deadly weapon for a reason, if needed and not used for its intended purpose, they may come back for round two in the future and succeed.

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Old December 5, 2012, 01:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Always bothered me that the perp was hit 5 times in the chest by very potent rounds, yet could still return deadly fire. As you know the perp is behind bars.

The tragic incident has, however, had a beneficial effect in that tactics to avoid such a terrible outcome have since been taught, and lives saved.
Exactly why I practice shot placement over speed, I shoot fast only because of a lot of trigger time but anybody wanting to shoot faster than me will be able to. I'd rather not have to empty my gun because my shots counted.

I keep seeing the videos of the Tueller drill and the only people who I have seen successful were the ones who did not retreat. You have feet, kick him, you have a forearm put it up and get cut but live, you have a chair throw it between you, you have a waste paper basket or stapler or plate of spaghetti get it between you and the knife man but for heavens sake do not retreat backwards while looking at the man charging you. 3 times I have faced a knife and each time the man was within arms reach of me and attacked without warning, even if I had a gun which I didn't I would not have been able to get to it. I have never been cut so going on the offensive immediately has a lot of pluses in my book.
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Old December 5, 2012, 02:26 PM   #36
Darren Roberts
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Your first response was the most correct for your original question. Worry about accuracy over rate of fire. How fast and accurate you make the first shot will matter way more than how fast you fire the next 6.
Practice clearing your weapon and getting that first shot accurate. Everything else is wasting ammo.
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Old December 5, 2012, 02:36 PM   #37
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The entire magazine or until theyre dead! They tried killing you for christs sake, they failed and get the exact thing in return... its called a deadly weapon for a reason, if needed and not used for its intended purpose, they may come back for round two in the future and succeed.
No.

You shoot until the threat stops, not until it's dead. It is called a deadly weapon because its use can cause a death much easier than a less-lethal weapon. That does not mean that you use it until the threat is dead. You shoot until the threat stops, if they assailant dies as a result, then that is unfortunate; but it was not your intention to kill him (or her).

If you go into the grand jury after a shooting and say what you said in defense of your actions, you will have a much harder time proving that all of your actions were justified.
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Old December 5, 2012, 02:48 PM   #38
Darren Roberts
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A note on the legal aspect that has been brought up... you may be required by your state laws to escape, "if possible" rather than defending yourself at all. If an intruder comes through the front door and you don't go out the back door, you can be held criminally accountable for any injuries or death to the intruder.
I personally believe that the progression of reaction should be
1. Distance
2. Barriers
3. Defense (only if necessary.)
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Old December 5, 2012, 02:49 PM   #39
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Quote:
Posted by DASHZNT: The entire magazine or until theyre dead! They tried killing you for christs sake, they failed and get the exact thing in return... its called a deadly weapon for a reason, if needed and not used for its intended purpose, they may come back for round two in the future and succeed.
Two things.
  1. Intentionally using more force than is immediately necessary to defend oneself or a third party is never lawfully justifiable, and
  2. One may not lawfully use force because of what someone may do in the future.
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Old December 6, 2012, 05:25 AM   #40
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be slow in a hurry

as Wyatt Earp is reported to have said

Fast is fine but accuracy is final. You must learn to be slow in a hurry
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Old December 6, 2012, 09:56 AM   #41
Strafer Gott
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The speed thing has really driven my choice of arms. I'm so much faster at this age with a pocket .38 revolver. My backup is a high cap auto. Slow just won't cut it.
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