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Old October 18, 2012, 04:46 PM   #1
browninghunter86
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AR 15 Loads

Anyone using the Barnes TSX or MPG bullet for self defense round in their AR? I want to load some good bullets just in case and to have them.

Bullets I am thinking are the Hornady 55 SP, 55 Zmax, one of the Barnes bullets, 60 Vmax, or stick with my 68 BTHP bullets

I believe any of the above would stop a bad guy if needed
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Old October 18, 2012, 04:50 PM   #2
m16tackdriver
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If you are using them just for self defense, your best bet might be a soft point jacketed bullet. Me, I just load FMJ ball in all my cartridges, both rifle and pistol.

For self defense I rely strictly on 9 .33 caliber lead balls just in front of a lot of powder
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Old October 19, 2012, 01:12 AM   #3
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I've loaded Barnes 62 grain TSX for my AR, but im not using them for SD. On the other hand, they do group around 1.5" at 100 yards with 25 grains of CFE223 using CCI41 primers. For defensive purposes, close range (less than 100yds) I would use the heaviest bullet your barrel could stabilize, if you choose Barnes bullets make sure you match your twist rate with the bullet. I have a 1:9 twist and the 62 grain Barnes is the max weight. If I use something else (jacketed) I could handle up to 70 grains.
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Old October 19, 2012, 10:55 AM   #4
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mohr, I can't get the 62 gr bullets to group well yet in my 1-9" AR. What powders are you using to get to 1.5" @100?
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Old October 19, 2012, 05:53 PM   #5
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55 grain V-Max loaded over 25 grains of H335 with a Magnum, or Bench Rest primer are devastating to soft tissue, though I penetration is not great.

The only thing I have used them on have been coyotes that I shot at 425 yards. The results were not pretty. I would not want to be shot by one. Then again I do not want to be shot by anything for that matter.
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Old October 19, 2012, 07:26 PM   #6
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A normal FMJ 223 bullet will be more than adequate for HD purposes.
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Old October 19, 2012, 10:51 PM   #7
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Stick with the 68 gr HPBT. At halitosis range they will "explode" in tissue.

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Old October 19, 2012, 11:25 PM   #8
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looking at Hornady gel test of LE 75 BTHP I don't see why the 68s would not do a good job either. I will stick with these and load the 100 bullets I have left. Thinking I am around 2700 FPS out of a 16" using the 68 BTHP. Should do the job
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Old October 20, 2012, 06:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
55 grain V-Max loaded over 25 grains of H335 with a Magnum, or Bench Rest primer are devastating to soft tissue, though I penetration is not great.
What is the advantage of using a magnum primer ?
I have been using CCI# 400 and see some guys also use CCI# 41, what is the difference in those two ?
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Old October 20, 2012, 06:36 AM   #10
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Fmj from a AR, inside a dwelling has a significant amount of over penetration. If you have neighbors or kids, might wanna rethink that. Any chambering is going to be a compromise. Close range,and soft tissue is a perfect combo for the vmax/zmax. Hits in soft tissue result in massive,but shallow wounding. Not likely to penetrate to the nervous system, but I've dropped deer here in Ga with well placed neck shots.
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Old October 20, 2012, 08:54 AM   #11
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thicker primer helps reduce chance of slam fires. I use Tulammo KVB 5.56M and works great
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Old October 20, 2012, 09:57 AM   #12
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Browninghunter you awnsered the question for me as far as the magnum primers goes. I use a bolt action for .223 so I use standard primers for my gun. If I am loading for an AR I use the magnum primers to prevent a slam fire. I have seen a guy shooting .308 in a Steyer AUG that had a slam fire with Federal ammo that was factory loaded with Nostler BT when he was chambering the first round. It scared the bejesus out of him.
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Old October 20, 2012, 11:40 PM   #13
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Edward

The one load I used is in my post above. I also used 23.3 grains of Varget with LC brass and CCI 41 primer with about the same results. I didn't use a chrono for either load, but with the info I got the CFE223 should give me a higher velocity.
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Old October 20, 2012, 11:44 PM   #14
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Rebs

Here is a link for CCI primers, you can read about the here.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...s/default.aspx
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Old October 30, 2012, 03:13 PM   #15
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watch using FMJs for home defense. Your likely to have over penetration. If you have other houses near you run the risk of shooting into thier homes as well as damaging your stuff. Id hate to take out my tv in the process of stopping bad guy. Check out V-maxs or stick with soft points. Even a SMK will work well because it schrapnels once surface pentration occurs.

Same idea with buck shot vs #4 shot. Buck shot, you run risk of over penetration a lot of damage for the beeds that miss. The #4 shot is till plenty powefrul to stop a drug ladened bad guy but also reduces collateral damage.
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Old October 30, 2012, 04:46 PM   #16
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Brokenanew,

Any 223 caliber FMJ over 3,000 fps will disintegrate in flesh. The jacket can't hold the core together as the bullet tries to "invert" and go base forward after 2 inches of penetration. The remaining energy causes the gilding metal jacket to separate and the core to fragment.

So overpenetration is not a concern at "self defense ranges" with a 223. The FBI confirmed this, and Dr. Martin Fackler.

In terms of "overpenetration" of walls, the only answer is to use a pre-fragmented bullet like a DRT in rifle, or Glaser in pistol. A premium hunting round or cheap FMJ will penetrate sheet rock with ease (whether from a rifle or pistol).

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Old October 30, 2012, 05:27 PM   #17
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Whatever bullet you settle on for self defense, practice with the same weight bullet. If you don't, you will have big problems with elevation.
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Old November 1, 2012, 12:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Your likely to have over penetration

What's over penetration?
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Old November 1, 2012, 03:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Brokenanew,

Any 223 caliber FMJ over 3,000 fps will disintegrate in flesh. The jacket can't hold the core together as the bullet tries to "invert" and go base forward after 2 inches of penetration. The remaining energy causes the gilding metal jacket to separate and the core to fragment.

So overpenetration is not a concern at "self defense ranges" with a 223. The FBI confirmed this, and Dr. Martin Fackler.
The old FMJ "tumbling bullet myth? Sorry, if the bullet is well stabilized, it will continue point forward in flesh as well as other medium. If a FMJ or any other bullet is marginally stable, then any of them could swap ends, then travel backwards.

Another thing, load some run-of-the-mill FMJ backwards,(yeah base forward), then see if they "explode" when encountering soft tissue. A couple of water filled milk jugs would suffice.
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Old November 1, 2012, 06:40 PM   #20
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My favorite SHTF load is a 60-gr Nosler on top of 26.5 gr Varget, Win Primer.
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Old November 1, 2012, 06:44 PM   #21
Jimro
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Snuffy,

Google before posting something like this:

Quote:
The old FMJ "tumbling bullet myth? Sorry, if the bullet is well stabilized, it will continue point forward in flesh as well as other medium. If a FMJ or any other bullet is marginally stable, then any of them could swap ends, then travel backwards.

Another thing, load some run-of-the-mill FMJ backwards,(yeah base forward), then see if they "explode" when encountering soft tissue. A couple of water filled milk jugs would suffice.

http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/M...d_patterns.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armamen...rArvidsson.pdf

All spitzer bullets show this yaw in tissue, velocity is the key to getting fragmentation.

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Old November 1, 2012, 09:53 PM   #22
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Oh, I'm real convinced, the first link, the author refers to earlier writings of his own to make points! Come on, how is that going to help his theory? Agreeing with himself!

The theory that a bullet stable in flight through the air, becomes immediately UNstable in flesh may have some merit. Bodies offer a wide range of different flesh consistencies, along with the angle of striking the bodies.

I love to test things, especially if a theory is espoused that I disagree with. I have test media that is a heavy, gooey wax, made by the bullet test tube company.;
http://www.thebullettesttube.com/

The article by Martin Fackler said the bullet that yaws, then tumbles to go backwards is the SS-109? But you state that a common 55 grain FMJ will do the same?

How about if I shoot one,(a 55 FMJ), into the above mentioned test media? I know it will probably take 3 of the rifle tubes to "catch" a FMJ, because I think it will stay point forward and penetrate deeply. My AR is a 1-9 twist, so the heavier and much longer SS-109 would not be stabilized,(however my rifle WILL stabilize a 65 or 70 grain bullet with no problems). No matter, I don't have any. Bartlet lists the M855, but is sold out. Hi-tech also lists the SS-109---M855, but is also sold out.

If it helps any, the ammo I'll use is factory loaded American eagle tactical XM-193, loaded in lake city brass with 55 FMJ.

The Fackler article, the Figures would not show up on my puter. I would have liked to see his pics. What was the test media those fragged bullets was fired into?

Please believe me, I'm not starting an argument, if I'm wrong then I'll have learned something valuable. (Wouldn't be the first time!) And maybe some others will as well. Got any other links?
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Old November 1, 2012, 09:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
All spitzer bullets show this yaw in tissue, velocity is the key to getting fragmentation.
ALL? So my .280, .308, 30-06 spitzer soft points should be found under the off side skin backwards? Not in about 10-15 deer I or others have shot!

Or for that matter quite a few bullets I have tested in the bullet test tubes, all were point forward when found. I guess we'll have to see what I come up with.
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Old November 1, 2012, 11:03 PM   #24
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Snuffy,

Spitzer soft points are different from spitzer FMJ's in how they react to tissue. Instead of staying together long enough to destabilize due to yaw the front starts opening up immediately, creating a mushroom effect where the center of gravity is moved forward (because the front of the bullet is coming backward) which allows the bullet to continue forward.

In an FMJ, the center of gravity remains in the rear, which is why it "flips" tail end forward in tissue.

You can see some good pictures over at Froggy's place: http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal2.htm

Everything you never wanted to know about FMJ ammo from an AR-15: http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-...cle_Mirror.htm

Dr. Martin Fackler explains terminal ballistics: http://pw1.netcom.com/~dmacp/Fackler_review.html

One of the features behind hunting elephant with a 6.5 mm rifle was the round nose FMJ bullet used, the profile of the bullet kept the center of gravity close enough to the center that it used the high sectional density to push deep into the elephants brain. The old 318 Westley Richards cartridge had a "3 radius bullet" design that was also very good at straight line penetration on big game.

Here is a good article, about the old and discredited "energy dump" theory of terminal ballistics: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

Enjoy.

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Old November 2, 2012, 01:42 AM   #25
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browning hunter

Pick up a box of Nosler varmagedon in 55 grain. I load these with h335 and Varget, when these things hit they explode! I shot some milk jugs and didn't get any seriuos penetration into the jugs behind them, just a few minor pieces of shrapnel that grazed them. I think my Varget load with these is 23.3 grains, using CCI41 primers and LC brass, sub moa @100 yds.
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