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Old March 29, 2013, 10:08 AM   #1
Nathan
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Tactical Reloading Kit

Tactical Reloading Kit

I reload quite a bit, but this is terrible! There are all these guy buying AR's, components, etc thinking the are gone reload. Then they buy this!

Frankly, to load AR, you need:
Tumbler
Progressive press set up for your caliber
Good case trimmer
Primer pocket crimp remover
Good scale
Calipers
Tools to measure case length, headspace and COAL.
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Old March 29, 2013, 11:08 AM   #2
rlc323
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I just noticed those kits this morning in an e-mail from Natchez. It has a lot of things you may need to get started. But I can not see anyone needing all four of the AR die sets to start off.

I did not price out the pieces individually but if you are looking to start out with a single stage you would likely be better off going with the Rockchucker Supreme kit and then just buying the AR dies you need.
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Old March 29, 2013, 11:31 AM   #3
Nathan
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Thanks RLC. I totally agree that RCBS is great stuff, but I would have rather see them rebox the Rockchucker kit as "tactical" than that.

The point of the OP was that this is the last thing I need for serious AR ammo production. Serious being >500 rounds to me in a single lot.

BTW, there is nothing tactical about reloading. You are basically a chemist working with dangerous combinations of materials and processes. You need to maintain a clean environment, a perfectly calibrated scale and a good process flow.

As a manufacturing engineer, I would never turn employees loose with hobby presses to make production ammo. You would end up with a mess that even the lawyers would have trouble sorting out! Basically, I'm saying take it slow, careful and really know what you are doing before you do it. Also, take meticulous notes so you do not repeat your errors. Label everything. I label my press with settings, what primers it is loaded with, what powder is in the hopper. I only allow myself 1 powder bottle and 1 primer package on the table at a time. blah. . .blah. . .blah. If you want to hear the rest, PM me as it is off topic.
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Old March 29, 2013, 11:45 AM   #4
m&p45acp10+1
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Funny I have reloaded tens of thousands of rounds of .223 Rem. Using a single stage press, and standard dies. All haven worked just fine.
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Old March 29, 2013, 11:49 AM   #5
buck460XVR
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How can it be tactikool if it isn't camoed? Won't the zombies see it?
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Old March 29, 2013, 01:34 PM   #6
GWS
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I don't disagree with anything said, but consider this:

What's the quickest, safest, and best way for noobies to start when they don't have the sense to go it slow and learn the art carefully over a years time? (there are a lot of them who are going to jump in no matter what you and I say.)

So considering that....they order everything they think they need from Natchez (Natchez's point of view here) and then they start wham banging ammo together. Then Natchez gets a call....."why in the hell don't my primers seat?" Ahhhh you need a swager. (Reamers don't make Natchez enough money to be in the kit....besides they are too slow for the computer generation kids who are joining our ranks by the thousands, thanks to the master gun salesman, Obama.)

Next call...."Why in the hell doesn't my new reloads chamber and feed like factory?" Weeeelllll the easiest answer (Natchez P of V) is you need AR Dies.

Why? Well small-based dies size a tad (.001-.002") closer to factory diameters, guaranteed to chamber. Plus, if you have to back out your sizer because you are bumping the shoulder too far, that (.001-.002") becomes even more critical.

Besides AR dies have taper-crimp seaters so noobies won't make ammo with bulged case mouths. (Remember we are talking to new reloaders not seasoned ones, using separate or no crimper, and the customer service dept. is maxed out as it is.)

So in light of that.....do you really blame Natchez for their Tactical Loading Kit? Add all four dies was genius! Simplifies ordering...order takers these days are also maxed out.

Last edited by GWS; March 29, 2013 at 01:55 PM.
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Old March 29, 2013, 02:47 PM   #7
FrankenMauser
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For true "Tactical" use, it should be disposable.



Quote:
Frankly, to load AR, you need:
Tumbler
Progressive press set up for your caliber
Good case trimmer
Primer pocket crimp remover
Good scale
Calipers
Tools to measure case length, headspace and COAL.
I disagree.

Tumblers are nice to have, but not required.
A progressive press is nice to have, but not required.
A case trimmer is not required.
A Chamfer/Deburring tool takes care of primer pocket crimp rings
Case length and COAL are taken care of by the calipers. - Head space doesn't matter.


To truly be worth of the 'tactical' name, a "Tactical Reloading Kit" must be 100% self-contained in a disposable tomahawk.
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Old March 29, 2013, 02:48 PM   #8
JimDandy
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Quote:
Calipers
Tools to measure case length, headspace and COAL.
Isn't that redundant? Calipers ARE a tool to measure case length, and COAL?

As for the kit itself, its not that bad. A hell of a lot more than I'd pay for it. Especially since I don't need the other dies, just the .223.

Compare it to the Hornady Classic Deluxe Kit and I think you'll see what I mean. Neither kit is exactly perfect. The RCBS kit comes with a balance beam scale, which I'd prefer to electronic. But the Hornady kit comes with a LOT more of the useful stuff you don't think of... kinetic bullet puller and book for example. ANYONE just starting out needs a kinetic bullet puller. It's just a fact of life that you're going to have to practice, and the best way is to make empty rounds, just case plus bullet, reseting the dies in between to get used to setting them up.

But yeah, neither kit is complete enough.
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Old March 29, 2013, 02:55 PM   #9
AlaskaMike
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To really qualify for tacticool status, it must have the following:

1. Nonreflective black finish
2. Picatinny rails on all available surfaces
3. EOTech optics
4. The ability to turn the whole assembly sideways while you're not actually pulling the handle.
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Old March 29, 2013, 02:56 PM   #10
m&p45acp10+1
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I thought that the word "tactical" means they hype it, and charge way more for it.

Only kidding.

One could do it with, a manual, the components, a two die FL sizing set a dial caliper, (or something to cull out brass that is too long.) Case lube, a hand press, and a way to remove the case lube once the round is loaded. That is the bear minimum for an AR. (Fast in no way, though it would fit in a shoe box, or tactininja bag, oh wait I mean "Bug Out Bag")

For a step up add a case trimmer, chamfer/deburr tool, a primer pocket crimp remover, and a tumbler. Also add a bech mounted press of choice.
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Old March 30, 2013, 10:43 AM   #11
Nathan
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I must be using some backwards English. Please help me.

To me, measuring OAL is:


Measuring COAL is:

Or


So what should I be calling these 2 measurements?

Also, headspace(cartridge side), experience tells me must be measured and controlled if I want ammo to fit my gun for sure. So, I measure like:


I load and prep my cases by the 1000 round lot for 223 once I get a load. I load by the double progressive method:
1) Tumble
2) FL size with lube(decap with seperate stronger decapper to avoid broke dies). . .Sample check HS and neck runout.
3) Tumble off lube
4) Case length sort(trim or no trim required)
5) Trim cases which require trimming + chamfer and deburr
6) sort by primer pockets crimped or not
7) ream crimped pockets
8) prime, charge, seat and crimp on progressive
9) Sample measure COAL and bullet runout

I tumble because I want clean cases going in my die and unlubed case going in my chamber. Shiny is ok also.

Quote:
A case trimmer is not required.
Can you explain? Are you not trimming at all or just another method?

Quote:
A Chamfer/Deburring tool takes care of primer pocket crimp rings
It can, but the ones done that way concern me a bit as they might be reducing the grip on the primer too much. It is a pretty big cut. Lyman makes a specific crimp removal cutter which I find works well.

Quote:
Head space doesn't matter.
Can you explain? IME, too short(hard for me to achieve) will shorten case life. Too long and it will not lock up.

I guess YMMV.

Last edited by Nathan; March 30, 2013 at 03:29 PM.
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Old March 30, 2013, 12:38 PM   #12
FrankenMauser
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Cases don't have to be reloaded until failure. They can be recycled or resold when case length is long enough to require trimming. Even so... I've seen some reloaders get as many as 15 reloads out of LC 5.56 brass before there were a large number of neck cracks - having never needed to trim a case.

-The second image in your post is not displaying.

Quote:
Can you explain? IME, too short(hard for me to achieve) will shorten case life. Too long and it will not lock up.
Head space does matter.
My comment was meant to be more along the lines of, "There are other ways of making sure you don't mess up head space, that don't require special tools."
-Such methods can be found in nearly every reloading manual, and some sizing die instructions.
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Old March 30, 2013, 01:20 PM   #13
JimDandy
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Quote:
I load and prep my cases by the 1000 round lot for 223 once I get a load. I load by the double progressive method:
1) Tumble
2) FL size with lube(decap with seperate stronger decapper to avoid broke dies). . .Sample check HS and neck runout.
3) Tumble off lube
4) Case length sort(trim or no trim required)
5) Trim cases which require trimming + chamfer and deburr
6) sort by primer pockets crimped or not
7) ream crimped pockets
8) prime, charge, seat and crimp on progressive
9) Sample measure COAL and bullet runout
For me its:
  1. Decap using Universal Decapping Die
  2. Wet Tumble
  3. RCBS Lube Die
  4. FL Resize
  5. Charge, etc to done.

that way I don't have to tumble before decapping.
Additionally, I like the Wet tumble better for cleaning primer pockets, and interior case walls.
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Old March 30, 2013, 03:39 PM   #14
Nathan
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Frankenmauser,
Obviously your methods are working well for you. I did those too. I can say that when I started measuring, it was a real eye opener! Also, groups shrank and reliability improved. I also learned that the FL die sometimes moves the the datum point forward in some calibers!

Jim,
How this works for you is amazing! About half of my once fired needs trimming and keeps needing trimmed. I don't know it for fact, but I read that at some point too long creates a pressure spike by holding the bullet too tight.

I too used to tumble loaded or leave case lube on cases. That is also said to be bad for bolt thrust from what I read, but I never blew a gun up. I guess cleaning them works well enough for me.

Thanks all. Take it easy.
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