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Old September 22, 2013, 01:41 AM   #1
idek
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zombie-themed guns/ammo: fun or legal liability??

I recently purchased a Sig P238, and, as it is my first .380 auto, did some research on SD ammo for the gun.

One variation of the Sig P238 is zombie-themed (though I no longer see it shown on the sig-sauer website).


And in my ammo search I came across Hornady's Zombie Max ammo.

This ammo seems to have specs identical to Hornady's "Critical Defense 90 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding" ammo and costs the same, which makes me think marketing (and the color of the brass and bullet tip) is the only difference between the two, and that Zombie Max ammo is indeed designed as SD ammo.

The whole zombie thing isn't my cup of tea anyway, but it got me thinking. While I appreciate that gun-owners have options from which to choose, I wonder if use of zombie-themed guns and/or ammo in a SD shooting can have any effect in a courtroom. I mean, if I were I a juror, I'd try to focus on facts, but I admit my impressions of someone might be different if the shooting had involved the gun and ammo shown above versus more conventional equipment.

I have no legal insight or experience and am only wondering. Could something like this matter or is it inconsequential? Could ammo type even be determined and brought up?
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Old September 22, 2013, 01:57 AM   #2
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I don't know, but I can't imagine it would help anything.

I'm disgusted by the zombie craze when it comes to firearms. I really just don't understand it. Does it make potentially deadly weapons seem more lighthearted and therefore easier to purchase for some people? Is it a way to make guns into a some kind of lighthearted toy? To me, the zombie craze is simply idiotic and childish; not the kind of thing that should be combined with firearms.
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Old September 22, 2013, 03:13 AM   #3
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“I mean, if I were I a juror, I'd try to focus on facts, but”

Don’t worry about being a juror in a case involving a gun if you belong to the NRA. You’ll be kicked-off before blinking an eye. The term “fact” is used by the prosecution but it isn’t so unless you believe it.

Zombie stuff like bleeding targets appears to sell very well at the various gun shows I’ve seen. Rather pricey, about $70, for an expendable item IMO. From what I’ve seen/heard many of the new people, rather young type, refer to zombies as a need for a firearm. Entertainment like the paramilitary stuff sold.
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Old September 22, 2013, 05:49 AM   #4
thedudeabides
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There have been endless threads about this on various gun forums.

As a disclaimer I think Zombie themed anything is ugly and stupid as hell. I prefer to work on tactics than shooting stupid plastic clothing store mannequins that have been painted green and bleed pancake syrup.

With that said, Zombie stuff is like modifying a gun. If you read and believe Mas Ayoob, anything you do to modify a gun can be used against you if you're involved in a shooting. That applies to trigger jobs, night sights, tactical lights, oversized magazines, even ammo choice...

According to Mas it can be argued that you made the gun more "lethal." With that said, there's no evidence that this has EVER been successfully used against someone to determine whether a shooting was justified... I am somewhat disturbed that by watching the random TV coverage of Zimmerman I DO know that he had his gun loaded with target ammo... But then what if you compete in pistol matches, go to the range a lot, have attended various reactive handgun and rifle courses, reload your own ammo?

Zombie handguns are just extreme and scream gun modification to excess, that same gun modification very legitimate firearms instructors have warned us on the interwebs to avoid.

My two cents, my carry/HD guns are thoroughly vetted for reliability and bone stock. I don't agree with Mas, yet I'm still going along with his advice.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:38 AM   #5
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Zombies, guns, and rock and roll

Nobody loves Walking Dead and WW Z and all the other zombie movies and shows more than me but I know there are real people preparing for a "possible" zombie apocalypse. Seriously buying guns and ammo like the other "doomsday preppers" who foresee a great world crisis and open rebellion. All of these sad folks are in the "need to get a life category" in my book.

Legit, first tier companies like Sig and Hornady playing into it is a bit disappointing and may make some folks turned off but it is just pop merchandising and trying to maximize profitability for investers every possible way. It will be short-lived as most popular crazes are.

Legally, I think the focus in a court case will be on the facts NOT the color on the ammo and firearms. If these are brought in as evidence that is probably a sign that the real facts of the case are sketchy and the attorney is grasping at straws.

I imagine the judge's gavel would come down hard to stop the snickering the minute the word "zombie" is brought up in court.

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Old September 22, 2013, 06:51 AM   #6
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Zombies! Silly, but I do have some Zombie Max ammo because it was a couple dollars cheaper than Critical Defense. Green works as well as red for me.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:53 AM   #7
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Speaking of which... it's getting near Halloween. When does the Zombie-themed forum re-open?
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Old September 22, 2013, 07:05 AM   #8
Revoltella
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I am somewhat disturbed that by watching the random TV coverage of Zimmerman I DO know that he had his gun loaded with target ammo...
I too watched the Zimmerman trial, pretty much from gavel to gavel. I saw the testimony of the crime scene technician, the firearms forensic technician, and the expert witness. I remember hearing it was loaded with hollow points, but no mention as to type, brand, or any other specifics as to the ammo used. It could have been Zombie Max for all we know, or WWB JHPs from Walmart. Regardless of what a part-time cop from a NH town of 3,000 people thinks, the ammo used in the highest profile self defense case in decades was never an issue.

Like you said...
Quote:
With that said, there's no evidence that this has EVER been successfully used against someone to determine whether a shooting was justified...
I see his warning repeated on gun forum after gun forum ad nauseum like it's gospel, yet no evidence exists to back it up. This is right up there with "A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich".

Last edited by Revoltella; September 22, 2013 at 07:35 AM.
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Old September 22, 2013, 07:47 AM   #9
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One has to wonder if in the preparation of a case that the prosecutor wouldn't bring this in to play just to shock a jury that the defendant was a little "crazy" in regards to bringing fantasy in to his desire to self defend. I don't know, I'm not a attorney but you know they are goingto play whatever cards they can to win.

In my CCW class, ammo was discussed. Our instructors advised us to carry factory loaded ammunition - not reloads. Their reasoning was that if reloads were carred and a shooting occurred, whether it was a criminal or civil case, an attorney could argue that the shooter was "some kind of nut" who reloaded his ammo to do the most bodily injury. I view what a person carries - factory or reload - to e a personal decision but I can see how it could tip the balance on a juror's mind as to whether or not a person was guilty - especially if they had no experience in firearms.

Zombie stuff -sorry, I just don't get it. It's all marketing and I know it's selling - but the box shown looks like it would have great visual appeal to a young person - sort of like boxing drain cleaner in a box that looks like it contains candy. Yea, it has a warning on it - so what? So do a lot of products and people don't read 'em. I was brought up to treat firearms with respect - and ammo as well. They can be great fun if used safely and a lot of enjoyment can be had. But - they aren't "toys". Zombie stuff to me goes hand in hand with all of the fantasy game crap and unfortunately, we have too many young people who can't distinguish between "fact and fiction" and what's "real and not fantasy." And let's not even get started on the total lack of
common sense". I'm probably going to get blasted for this - so be it - just chalk it up to my being an "old fart".
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Old September 22, 2013, 08:26 AM   #10
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Of course the fact is that it's just marketing, nothing more, nothing less. Regarding the ammo all you have to say is "I think it's goofy but it was all I could find available at the time".
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Old September 22, 2013, 08:30 AM   #11
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Their reasoning was that if reloads were carred and a shooting occurred, whether it was a criminal or civil case, an attorney could argue that the shooter was "some kind of nut" who reloaded his ammo to do the most bodily injury.
Assuming you're not making +P+ reloads or using Lehigh bullets, that's easily countered by a defense attorney providing ballistic evidence that your ammo is no more powerful or lethal than factory loads.
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Old September 22, 2013, 08:43 AM   #12
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I too watched the Zimmerman trial, pretty much from gavel to gavel. I saw the testimony of the crime scene technician, the firearms forensic technician, and the expert witness. I remember hearing it was loaded with hollow points, but no mention as to type, brand, or any other specifics as to the ammo used. It could have been Zombie Max for all we know, or WWB JHPs from Walmart. Regardless of what a part-time cop from a NH town of 3,000 people thinks, the ammo used in the highest profile self defense case in decades was never an issue.
Shows how much the media twisted that case, I remember seeing a Kel-Tec with a mag loaded with FMJ's, may not have even been Zimmerman's gun--for all I know some news outlet put that up as an example...

Ayoob's statement about bone stock guns has been repeated all over the internet, and I've heard it in several CCW and handgun classes I've attended. The weird thing when it comes to handgun instruction that there's a lot of lore out there, and there are certain people who act like prophets of a certain gospel. My wife came back from a CCW class asking me if the night sights I put on her PPS would get her into trouble in a self defense situation.

I've read most of Ayoob's articles, as well as those of others. I am not an internet legal expert. I am not a lawyer. I am not an operator.

I just know that if you really want to start an argument about what is an "appropriate" gun for self defense you just get down a slippery slope... and I just can't imagine how there'd be a real world application of Ayoob's statement that modifying a gun would land you in the grand jury, 10-15 years of trouble he describes if you use it in a legally justifiable manner...

At some point firearms training needs to be revisited and a lot of the myths need to be explained away and stamped out. A lot of what's out there is just opinion. Well meaning, intelligent, opinion, but just opinion nonetheless.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; September 22, 2013 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Irrelevant dig at Yeager
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Old September 22, 2013, 12:22 PM   #13
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If I am in my home, and use reasonable force on an intruder who is rushing to attack me, and the government wants to put me in jail because of 'modifications' I did to my self defense weapon, or the ammo I used, then the system is seriously screwed up. I feel I have a right to modify my weapon as I see fit, as long as I am not breaking any laws in the process of modifying my firearm.
If the government wants to throw me in jail because I used a lighter trigger, or +P ammo, or hand loads, or optics to help me see better at night, to protect myself, then the Government and system are the ones who are wrong, as long as I am using reasonable force, and protecting myself reasonably and in a justifiable manner.
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Old September 22, 2013, 12:52 PM   #14
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If a zombie on a gun or ammo is a liability.....

Would a gun with unicorns or Smurfs on it be an asset in court? .
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Old September 22, 2013, 02:05 PM   #15
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zombie-themed guns/ammo: fun or legal liability??

To me the real question is, will this crap be collectible and worth something in 50 years? I think yes and have a few hundred rounds for that reason.
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Old September 22, 2013, 02:13 PM   #16
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zombie-themed guns/ammo: fun or legal liability??

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
At some point firearms training needs to be revisited and a lot of the myths need to be explained away and stamped out. A lot of what's out there is just opinion. Well meaning, intelligent, opinion, but just opinion nonetheless.
Which is why I quoted the first paragraph. ALL firearms trainers input their opinion. It's impossible not to. The best instructors teach several different methods of accomplishing a given task where possible and you decide which one you think best suits you, or the situation. Taking opinion out will never happen. It can't. It is the reason that training and tactics advance with time, someone opines they have a better way of doing something and they teach that.

Last edited by Tom Servo; September 22, 2013 at 09:04 PM. Reason: James Yeager snark
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Old September 22, 2013, 03:21 PM   #17
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I have seen the box in person... On the other side, not shown in the picture, it has a warning that says... "For zombie use only".

Now a prosecutor could possibly try to use that as a basis to an argument, but a quick call to Hornandy by the defense would get the info that the ammo is identical to their SD ammo but for color of the plastic plug.


On a side note:

People love to bash on Nutnfancy and Yeager...

I look at nutnfancy as just being a normal guy who likes to play "tactical" on the weekends. Which is fine, as it can be a lot of fun, but I don't look to him as being a source of vital info. He tends to be thorough in his gun reviews, but a bit long winded.

Yeager to me seems a bit "meat headed"... the stereotypical "grunt"... He may be a nice guy in person, but seems like his ideas on what is appropriate for use of force and personal interaction as being a bit... out of date. More battlefield than boulevard.

Maybe I'm wrong...
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Old September 22, 2013, 03:43 PM   #18
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LOL... I've used tons of Zombie rifle ammo for hunting... Same stuff as its red tipped counterpart....

Its ammo, just look at it that way and you will be fine...Just pretty boxes like your standard defensive ammo, hunting ammo ect....
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Old September 22, 2013, 03:45 PM   #19
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Zombie handguns are just extreme and scream gun modification to excess, that same gun modification very legitimate firearms instructors have warned us on the interwebs to avoid.
Really?? Green grips... that's not exactly extreme mods now is it?
In fact, just what kinda mods do you think they do?
And the Zombie ammo... once it's loaded the only way to tell it from any other ammo is a green plastic tip.

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Old September 22, 2013, 05:42 PM   #20
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The grip marking on the gun shown by the OP is the biohazard symbol. I wonder what is on the grips, anthrax, maybe.

I don't like the "zombie" business at all; frankly, I consider gun ownership and gun carry to be very serious, not some kind of comic book joke by a juvenile fool. Worse, it seems to me that some folks (yes, some on here) seem to use "zombie" as a euphemism for people of a different race, and that is not acceptable. If someone carrying a "zombie" gun or ammo uses it in self-defense and the idea is conveyed to a judge or jury that the shooter set out to kill "zombies", conviction for murder will be almost a foregone conclusion.

Jim
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Old September 22, 2013, 05:56 PM   #21
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Zombie squad....

I agree with the forum members about all the zombie hoo-hah.
I wouldn't buy into it or want a duty pistol with a bunch of "zombie killer" non-sense all over it.
I could just picture a veteran homicide investigator or deputy DA/asst state atty tearing into someone for those points.
As for handgun custom work or add-ons, I think some have merit but that is for a trained or advanced-level shooter. A new or entry level gun owner doesn't need a $3000.00 race gun. Nor do they need some SWAT/DevGru SEAL carry package.
3 dot night-sights or maybe new after market grips are all any new license holder needs.
Id add that custom work or features can be defended in court/civil actions but if you put zombies or grim reapers or skulls, you may have to deal with the fall-out.

CF
PS; I watched much of the GZ case too & noticed the 9x19mm rounds were almost a non-issue. Judge Nelson even said the pistol ammunition not be given to the female jury members to review. The local media never brought up the topic either.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:11 PM   #22
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To me the real question is, will this crap be collectible and worth something in 50 years? I think yes and have a few hundred rounds for that reason.
This is exactly why I have a few boxes of it. I don't actually think a zombie apocalypse is going to happen, and I don't use it for self-defense. I shot a box of it at the range though, and it seems like it is pretty much the same as Critical Defense.

I wouldn't use it in SD just in case, but if it was all I had, I wouldn't be too worried about it being used against me in court.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:13 PM   #23
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The only thing I have Zombie are the Hornady rounds for my .45. Reason being is they were the only thing around when i needed some SD ammo as well as the fact that they are the Critical Defense with green tips.

Nothing special about the rounds and hard to find myself in hot water over the color of the tip. Even sillier things have happened and people have caught the devil for less. But where I live, there are few radical anti-gun hunting prosecutors with a like minded judge looking for an someone to make an example of.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:20 PM   #24
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This is exactly why I have a few boxes of it. I don't actually think a zombie apocalypse is going to happen, and I don't use it for self-defense.
Everyone knows FMJ's work better for hoards of zombies, anyway. You want the penetration, so you can quite literally kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:30 PM   #25
thedudeabides
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Really?? Green grips... that's not exactly extreme mods now is it?
In fact, just what kinda mods do you think they do?
When a gun is covered in skulls, bloodspatter cerakote, has "zombie slayer" or some other garbage on it... that's pretty extreme.

That's what Mas Ayoob and other gun experts are implying *might* get you into trouble because like others have said, guns, home defense, are not to be taken lightly... just imagine what it'd be like defending the use of lethal force with a garden variety police issue semi or an asinine green and blood cerakoted zombie gun with skull grips and "only a headshot counts!" on the slide. Go google some custom 'kote jobs on the internet and you'd see that many of these are pretty tasteless.

As I've already said, there's no proof that gun modifications have ever landed anyone in hot water, but why would you want to have a gun that would question your state of mind?
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