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Old October 18, 2012, 02:27 PM   #76
rodeo roy
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Thought I was done, but...

If anyone cares to read my original posts #24 & #25. I made my point clear or so I thought. I have sought out the type of training described and it did not work for me. I have developed what I think works for me and practice / train that with the time I have. I do not shoot for sport, don't work in LE, not a hobbist, so I do what I think would help me in sd; not saying what else may help just what helps me.

The method of training described is not the only method. While it may be in the mind of some the best or most widely used by expert marksman and trainers, it may not work for everyone. Not all so-called expert trainers have the teaching tools to modify the method to help those that may use IWB carry at say 4 o'clock or something outside of what they teach normally. In my case I was trained by some one with not much intrest in helping me learn. Rather than listen to my needs, concerns and finding out a way to reach me where I was, they just went full steam ahead with this method is the way and you must adapt to it. In the second set of classes I took it was one on one, I insisted in paying by the hour and had 4 sessions, plus at home practice and it did not improve my comfort level.

At the start of this thread it seemed to me, that the position of B. Watson was being tossed aside in a way that seemed intolerent to the idea that the method and training he saw was not to his liking, his opinion. Other posters took the chance to extoll the virture of the training while suggesting that others have less training, knowledge than they do, so how could any one else know better. Will I for one know myself better and what works for me may not be for you. It seemed that persons so invested to this method have taken offense, and anyone that does not align themselves with the method is to be tossed out.

Posts and posters have been dissected line by line and rebuffed or rebuked in a manor the denotes that the dissector has a answer / explantion for everything. In my opinion thats what I call know it all-ism. not debate or even disagreement. We all come to this at different levels so can we be tolerent to others views without needing to be condescending. If persons don't like to be criticized then it's best to keep your views quiet, cause the second you let it out, somebody is gonna have a different view and say so. To me it seems persons don't like or don't want any other ideas mentioned here outside of what they themselves present.

I will crawl back to cover and let you all continue to duke it out.
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Old October 18, 2012, 02:34 PM   #77
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... And by the way, how much longer will his New Technique be...well, never mind ...
The techniques presented by the OP are far from new, and in fact quite old. They are standard techniques and manipulations which have been taught for over a half century.

Given the simple fact of this, it staggers the imagination that someone would deign to comment on them as though they are even novel, much less faulty or dangerous.

Quote:
... At the start of this thread it seemed to me, that the position of B. Watson was being tossed aside in a way that seemed intolerant to the idea that the method and training he saw was not to his liking, his opinion.
He did not appear to be offering simply an opinion, but rather an assessment . He offered that "I have observed two practices that, to me, could prove fatal". He asked "Who is teaching this kind of gunfighting?" He went on to detail his experience as an instructor. I think that's part of what some of us find to be a head-scratcher regarding this conversation: How does someone consider himself to have the experience or knowledge to offer "opinions" on the matter, when the nature of his observations indicate that he has no idea what's been going on for the last 50 years? Not preferring something on the basis of having tried it is one thing. Not liking something based upon a simple, range-of-the-moment perception is still another. Not being at all aware of something so common is in a whole category by itself.

That is not adequately explained by noting that "not everyone is equally trained".

Last edited by zombietactics; October 18, 2012 at 03:21 PM.
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Old October 18, 2012, 02:55 PM   #78
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Let me put in a good word in defense of instructors, especially for those who are not present to speak for themselves. I refer to all of them, commercial, police, military and your friends at the range.

Some will for sure be better than others--at teaching. Teaching is an art apart from their skill in the subject being taught. And like everyone else, they have limited resources to work with. Even at a top school like gunsite, they don't pick their students, or at least I assume not. The students show up with whatever abilities they were given and still retain at that moment in their life. And like it or not, not everyone has equal ability, so we can presume not everyone is going to be equally trained. They may go through the same course but not everyone is going to get an A+.
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Old October 18, 2012, 03:23 PM   #79
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It was not made clear to me who was / is or is not a pro trainer or who has what level of training, I admit I don't pay attention to that. I just want to read what one has to say without the filter of that's so and so with this distinction or those letters behind their name. I read the post with a prospective of this is another shooter's opinion based on what he saw, does or did. I approach all post that way and want mine given the same respect, just another opinion form somebody with one. Some in this fourm think only this gun is the gun this way to carry is the way etc. I just think in this matter persons forgot that one size does not fit all.
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Old October 18, 2012, 09:29 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by rodeo roy
....I have sought out the type of training described and it did not work for me. I have developed what I think works for me and practice / train that with the time I have....I do what I think would help me in sd;...
Yes, but how do you know? How have you tested what you do?

As others have pointed out, it's not a matter of there being "one way." The core of today's defensive pistolcraft evolved from the days the Modern Technique was first emerging from the leather-slap matches put on by Jeff Cooper, Ray Chapman, Thell Reed, Michael Harries (of the Harries flashlight technique), Bruce Nelson, and others in the late 1950s in the mountains above San Bernardino, California. However, the major schools, like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, and major instructors, like Larry Vickers, Tom Given, Massad Ayoob, Louis Awerbuck, Walt Marshall and others add their unique perspectives.

And what we learn today is not the product of one person's ratiocination. The current major teachers learned from those of the past and they learn from each other. What they teach is tested, through their teaching, through competition and through analysis of after action reports of actual defensive gun usage.

When I took my first class at Gunsite, my instructors included someone with 30 years experience in law enforcement, including as an instructor, someone with many years experience in Army Special Forces and as a police SWAT office, someone also with many years experience in law enforcement and Jeff Cooper. And today, the instructors at Gunsite also have many years experience actually having put to use in real life the things they are now teaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
....Other posters took the chance to extoll the virture of the training while suggesting that others have less training, knowledge than they do, so how could any one else know better. Will I for one know myself better and what works for me may not be for you....
The real point is that not all opinions are equal. I'm sorry, but I'm more inclined to pay attention to the opinions of those people, like the qualified instructors I've had, who have the demonstrated knowledge and experience to back up those opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...In my case I was trained by some one with not much intrest in helping me learn....
And it's too bad you've had some poor instructors. There are some out there. But that doesn't mean that there aren't some instructors who could teach you things you don't know and teach you things that would improve your performance.

And I've also noticed in my training experience that it's important to come to class with an open mind. Each class I've taken has exposed me to some things new to me. Even when something new contradicted something I'd learned before, or thought I knew, there was benefit in accepting and finding value in the new material.
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Old October 19, 2012, 11:47 PM   #81
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Frank

To be clear I have not tested my training or really shared it with persons out side my little circle of shooting friends most of who use the technique in question. My only way to tell is by how I feel and the accuracy I have achieved since my personalized practice. From the start I have said that I work on what's comfortable for me.

Old man once told me "every tub gotta sit on its own bottom" what he meant was nobody has a better read on what works for you than you. Trust only God and yourself when it comes to your life. While the list of pros you know may have proved the method and taught it to the masses and helped them be better, I will still stay with my own opinion over theirs, in a gunfight my training may be enough maybe not, but like I've said from the start to each his own.,
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Old October 20, 2012, 12:21 AM   #82
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Old man once told me "every tub gotta sit on its own bottom" what he meant was nobody has a better read on what works for you than you.
As long as you stay in your own league.
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Old October 20, 2012, 08:44 AM   #83
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... Old man once told me "every tub gotta sit on its own bottom" what he meant was nobody has a better read on what works for you than you. Trust only God and yourself when it comes to your life. ...
Proof positive that being old does not necessarily mean being wise. If his pithy remark were even close to being true, then we should do away with everyone providing any kind of advice, instruction or service: doctors, teachers, mechanics, engineers, coaches, etc. The general thrust of your comments seems to be that somehow - magically - you are so wonderful or talented that you cannot benefit from the instruction of a third party. The simple arrogance of that position is astounding, no matter how much you dress it up in folksy charm.

Your position appears to be long on "old man" advice and self-congratulation, but a little short on reason.

Last edited by zombietactics; October 20, 2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Old October 20, 2012, 11:45 AM   #84
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Obviously the day of the amateur is past. You have to be certified, trained, licensed and possibly even badged. Or am I reading your post the wrong way? This is the sort of reasoning that ultimately suggests that firearms are much too difficult and dangerous to trust to anyone but professionals.
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Old October 20, 2012, 12:09 PM   #85
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Obviously the day of the amateur is past. You have to be certified, trained, licensed and possibly even badged. Or am I reading your post the wrong way?
You've absolutely read my post(s) the wrong way. I have never once suggested any requirement to be "certified, trained, licensed and possibly even badged". We have a right to own and carry whatever weapons we see fit for our defense, and I've never said anything to the contrary. This being factually true, it begs the question as to how (or why) you could possibly mis-characterize my statements so badly.


Quote:
This is the sort of reasoning that ultimately suggests that firearms are much too difficult and dangerous to trust to anyone but professionals.
If I reasoned such as you have suggested, your conclusion would be sensible. Since I haven't at all, it isn't.

The supposition of the OP seems to be that one with no real training or experience, (and being demonstrably ignorant of the past 50 years of history), is on equal footing with those better trained and more experienced, to assess what works or what does not in a self-defense encounter. Is there a problem with recognizing that as silly?

I'll not for one second suggest that anyone should be required to train to some arbitrary standard of my liking, in order to retain the right to defend themselves. We all have our priorities, and I don't stand in judgement of anyone's personal decisions in this regard. I consider anyone who gains even minimal skill, and carries daily, to be a potential ally and a brother.

I can nonetheless certainly note what should be obvious: some opinions are better informed than others. I resist the suggestion that ignorance is as good as knowledge, that slogans are a substitute for reason, or that an occasional range trip is the same thing as training.

Last edited by zombietactics; October 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM.
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Old October 20, 2012, 01:38 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
Obviously the day of the amateur is past....
You're setting up a false dichotomy. "Amateur" is not synonymous with "untrained."
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Old October 20, 2012, 04:14 PM   #87
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As I've stated I have trained in the method described. The trainers I worked with may not been the best. The course was titled "Advanced Self Defense Techniques" it consist of the basic draw method and a few drills about how to be better on target and little else. I have stated as well that my choices are based on what I picture a life or death struggle may come to. I would rather trust my own opinion in that case.

I have not said I thought the technique in question did not have value but for me it did not fit in my sd plan. The technique as it was taught to me did not answer or solve so common issues I had with regard to my personal carry style. How do you use the technique say if the attack is arms length, the bg can grab the gun. What happens if I pushed or fall, how does it work with a shoulder holster. A lot of things I did not work for me so I spent my money and time on training and practice I felt would help me and improves my comfort level.

The tone of many comments show an intolerance for those that don't subscribe to the same methods and that's too bad. It really speaks volumes that persons would call me closed minded, arrogant and ignorant just cause I take a different course of action when I comes to defended my life, very personal decision.

Last edited by rodeo roy; October 20, 2012 at 04:19 PM.
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Old October 20, 2012, 06:19 PM   #88
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... The tone of many comments show an intolerance for those that don't subscribe to the same methods and that's too bad. It really speaks volumes that persons would call me closed minded, arrogant and ignorant just cause I take a different course of action when I comes to defended my life, very personal decision.
I think you continue to conflate and confuse things, perhaps because you're reacting emotionally to (mis)perceived insults, rather than rationally. It is not "intolerance" to note that one thing is generally accepted (among those knowledgeable) as being better than another. Nor is it intolerant to recognize that some opinions are simply better informed than others.

You are not being called "closed minded, arrogant and ignorant" owing only to a difference of pure opinion. Rather it is the case that your are stubborn in your dismissal of anything outside your (admittedly) limited frame of reference.

Case in point: You stipulate that you may have limited training, and perhaps not "the best". Who knows? But given this admission, you then go on that you make your choices based upon what you acknowledge as a perspective so limited, plus what you "... picture a life or death struggle may come to" adding to note that "I would rather trust my own opinion in that case". So it comes down to trusting your own raw imagination, partly informed by a very limited education, and stubbornly rejecting any input from those with greater knowledge, experience, training and - dare I say it - apparently better sense. How is that any kind of recipe for success? I can't think of any field of endeavor where that attitude would be thought of as conducive to learning anything.
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Old October 20, 2012, 06:52 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...I have stated as well that my choices are based on what I picture a life or death struggle may come to...
And how do you know that your picture has any validity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...I have not said I thought the technique in question did not have value but for me it did not fit in my sd plan...
And how do you know that your plan has any utility?

A major deficiency with a plan, of course, is that any plan assumes things happening in a certain way. However, threats and a need to defend oneself or one's loved ones arise in a variety of ways.

Current training is multilayer. It begins with a sound grounding in some basic skills, usually including drawing from a holster, shooting quickly and accurately, movement, reloading, malfunction clearance and use of cover and concealment. Building on that is usually an array of further basic skills including such techniques as engaging multiple targets, shooting dominant hand only and non-dominant hand only, engaging near threats from the retention position (the gun held close to the body), other point shooting techniques, shooting in low light conditions with a flashlight and shooting while moving.

Next come exercises in simulators or Force-on-Force training. Simulator exercises and FoF, to be really useful, require a solid foundation of basic skills.

The point is to lay a foundation of basic skills that can be applied in a wide variety of situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...The technique as it was taught to me did not answer or solve so common issues I had with regard to my personal carry style...
Seems kind of backwards to me. My personal carry style is based on my training.

Training and education are growing and maturing experiences. One learns things he didn't know before, and he has to abandon old notions.
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Old October 20, 2012, 07:59 PM   #90
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The general thrust of your comments seems to be that somehow - magically - you are so wonderful or talented that you cannot benefit from the instruction of a third party. The simple arrogance of that position is astounding, no matter how much you dress it up in folksy charm.
There may be reasons other than arrogance that he is unable/unwilling to learn new tricks.... whatever they are, they are his, and his hide would be on the line in any event. So long as he does not attempt to school the uneducated, let him be....
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Old October 20, 2012, 08:22 PM   #91
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So long as he does not attempt to school the uneducated, let him be....
And that was exactly why I jumped on this thread four pages ago......the OP described what is fairly well established as sound practice and then labeled it "bad practice," advocating instead cowboy action gun game nonsense.
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Old October 20, 2012, 09:02 PM   #92
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The tone of many comments show an intolerance for those that don't subscribe to the same methods and that's too bad.
No.

They show an intolerance for untrained, inexperienced shooters who have concluded that that state of affairs is actually an advantage, driven by some combination of poverty, pride and having been born with an innate sense of righteous ignorance that has since been mis-labled "common sense."

Go ahead. Ask me how I know.
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Old October 20, 2012, 09:02 PM   #93
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To each his own.


Gun out, point and shoot at threat. Hopefully hit.


All else is prerogative.

"Tried and True, But Not For You"
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Old October 20, 2012, 10:41 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...I have not said I thought the technique in question did not have value but for me it did not fit in my sd plan...
And how do you know that your plan has any utility?
Was it General Patton who said "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy"?

Personally, I don't think anyone can have a self defense "plan," other than doing one's best to avoid places where the probability of attack is high. Beyond that, all anyone can do is drill in fundamentals, and learn the fundamentals well enough that adapting to an unfolding "situation" becomes an automatic response.

Say you practice drawing, presenting and firing for 100 cycles per day, every day for five years. Let's say you always stand in the same place in your man cave and you always present and "fire" at the same spot on the far wall. You'll get to be very proficient at drawing and getting off a shot at an assailant who happens to be standing in that position relative to yours. What if your "spot" is basically straight ahead, and when the attack actually happens the threat is 45 degrees to your left? ("Off the port bow," for anyone who might be a Navy vet.) If your practice doesn't include making allowance for the threat being in an unpredictable position/location, your training may fail. If you train to shoot one-handed, and don't anchor the off hand to the chest, taking a waist-high snap shot at someone standing 45 degrees to your left may indeed have you shooting through your own left hand.

People didn't come up with these concepts out of a clear blue sky, and if there weren't a good reason for doing things I doubt many serious instructors would be teaching them. Being a Jeeper, I keep thinking that some of this is parallel to the guys who remove the anti-sway bars from their suspensions. Yes, that allows more "articulation" off-road, but off-road you're going maybe 5 MPH. Those bars do serve a purpose. I know more than one person who has decided the anti-sway bars aren't necessary on the street, and who has subsequently ended up with his tires pointing skyward. Seriously: those bars cost money. No manufacturer would install them if they didn't think they were necessary.

So it is with "wasted" movements like firmly anchoring your off hand to your chest. There are reasons for doing that, and doing that does NOT have to slow you down. Once the movement has been learned and practiced, it becomes automatic.
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Old October 21, 2012, 10:59 AM   #95
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You know, I went to a restaurant once that was awful -- bad food, lousy service, unpleasant surroundings. And it was expensive!

After that, I decided I would never set foot in any restaurant, ever again.

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Old October 21, 2012, 11:50 AM   #96
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...and that pretty much nails it.
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Old October 21, 2012, 09:27 PM   #97
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A Blanca

I agree with the General. Patton quote and the fact that you train to become automatic and hope its enough when needed. I also know that any one technique will not work for everyone. Other techniques can be learned and employed with success. For me the choose came to comfort level and when I tried the technique in question it did not work for me. As tried and tested as it may be I was uncomfortable doing it.
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Old October 21, 2012, 11:27 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by rodeo roy
...As tried and tested as it may be I was uncomfortable doing it.
Often learning involves discomfort -- expanding one's comfort envelop beyond its then current boundaries.

Some years ago I was fortunate enough to take a high speed driving class. I remember my first time driving a Formula Ford through Turn 8 at Laguna Seca -- a left-right downhill "S" turn. When hitting the apex of the first half of the turn, you can't see the track. That certainly took things outside my comfort envelop, and my instinct said to back off the throttle. But of course, comng out of the throttle shifts weight forward and lightens the back end, so doing it under side loading while going downhill is a good way to go into a spin.

Forcing myself to understand the geometry of the turn and accept the realities of the physics involved was uncomfortable. But pushing beyond that discomfort and expanding my comfort envelop was necessary to achieving my goal of getting through the turn as fast as possible safely.
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Old October 21, 2012, 11:44 PM   #99
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Getting myself to turn tips down on my first double diamond ski run was not exactly comfortable, either.

My first attempt at landing a plane, way back when, was relatively uncomfortable.

Riding my first large motorcycle out of the dealer lot (HD 1480cc) and making the left turn onto a narrow two lane was interesting - almost torqued across the shoulder.

Very few things that pose a challenge are comfortable, early on.
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Old October 22, 2012, 02:17 PM   #100
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I admit that you only learn by going outside your comfort zone and anything one is not used to or new to may be considered out your comfort zone. In my case I started with a negative view partly by a trainer that was not good. I went back (different trainer and place) with a determination to learn the technique in question and practiced at home the recommend time and amounts (at least 100 per session) for weeks. When I tried it at a gun club I go to (outdoor range) I was a far worst shot as far as being on target, plus I never got confident with the mechanics of the draw or modifing it to suit my IWB (tucked at times) carry style. So like I said and have been saying it's not for everyone and other methods may work just as effective. By the way no one yet has offered any other method or technique (something supported by trainers and pros) that one may try, and that to me seems closed minded, or limited
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